Wizards, Now The Better Healer?

[Ramaloke]

So I was looking at the "Elven Spell Lore" feat just now, and I noticed the part about changing the energy type of a single damaging spell chosen when you pick the feat.

The feat itself doesn't give a list of types of energy damage, like most arcane feats which list the standard "Fire, Cold, Sonic, Acid, Electricity". This means we can pick "Positive Energy" right? Need some healing? A "Positiveball" should work out just fine? Am I reading this wrong?

[CantripN]

You change it into another damage type. Which means you'd be dealing Positive Energy Damage. Yes, it would harm living things. Funny, but it won't heal them.

Think of it as Holy in FF.

[altpersona]

classic dnd screwy mechanic.

negative energy heals undead
positive energy hurts everything..

[Ramaloke]

so I suppose I'll have to convince the party to take Tomb Tainted Soul, then I can use Elven Spell Lore NegativeBalls to heal the group .

[Nunkuruji]

You change it into another damage type. Which means you'd be dealing Positive Energy Damage. Yes, it would harm living things. Funny, but it won't heal them.

Think of it as Holy in FF.

Well, there's actually Divine vs. Positive
1/2 Flame Strike vs. Cure-X

Some other PrCs that convert to Divine as well...


If it's even legit, I think you have to worry about making people pop with too much positive energy from those spells? Same as Positive Energy plane issues?
(Whereas it is sanely assumed Cure-X does not over heal and make people pop)

[Sunic_Flames]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

[juton]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

[CantripN]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

You're right, they can't. I used to hang around the Magic & Spell section of Wizard way back, and it was a common mistake we used to fix people about. Wizards can only cast and learn spells in their spell list, no matter what's written in their spellbook, much like a Conjurer who'd barred Enchantment can't memorized Suggestion, even if it's in his spellbook.

[PhaedrusXY]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

You're right, they can't. I used to hang around the Magic & Spell section of Wizard way back, and it was a common mistake we used to fix people about. Wizards can only cast and learn spells in their spell list, no matter what's written in their spellbook, much like a Conjurer who'd barred Enchantment can't memorized Suggestion, even if it's in his spellbook.

And what if they take Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment)? They can obviously cast the spells from the domain they choose once. The feat specifically says they can, and IIRC it even says "as if they'd prepared them normally" or something like that. If they've prepared them, they can write them in their own spellbook. Right? Do you think they still can't re-prepare and recast that spell after they've written in in there, without recharging the touchstone? That's certainly a more balanced interpretation, but I don't think it exactly makes sense, and I'm not convinced it's RAW, either.

[CantripN]

Even if they get it with that, it's not going to slide. A Wizard 19/Cleric 1 has access to 2 distinct spell lists, and can't learn/cast Cleric spells as a Wizard. Same logic applies here => The fact that it's on YOUR spell list doesn't matter, because it's not on YOUR WIZARD SPELL LIST.

And before we go on, I do mean your own particular Wizard Spell List, so a Recaster can still cast it, since it's part of his particular Wizard Spell List.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Also, I think ESL got errataed or FAQed at some point to only use the normal energy types.

[Sunic_Flames]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

Actually, the method involves getting a scroll from a creature who can cast divine spells as arcane spells (nagas, certain true dragons).

[ninjarabbit]

It's not that hard to make a wizard healer. The arcane disciple (healing) and spontaneous healer feats work, hell limited wish lets you cast heal via the adept spell list.

[Widow]

There is a dragon mag spell that might help called the DISK OF CONCORDANT OPPOSITION, from dragon 338.  Half the damage is negative and half is positive energy, but the energy types do not heal undead or the living, they only do damage as stated by the spells description.  Things killed by the spell are also disintegrated (it can disintegrate objects too).  

While this spell specifically states it does damage and cannot heal and your example does not, it is possible to damage living targets with positive energy attacks.  This spell gives you a good bases for a ruling.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

This disparity is actually one of the major tenets of my "stop being racist against the undead" thesis.  If you're powered by negative energy, you don't have to worry about negative energy deciding to kill you.  If you're powered by positive energy, on the other hand, too much positive energy, or positive energy not specifically put into a beneficial form, will kill you dead.

[juton]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

Actually, the method involves getting a scroll from a creature who can cast divine spells as arcane spells (nagas, certain true dragons).

Ah, but the thing is that Wizards can't cast every arcane spell, they can only cast spells on the Wizard list. Otherwise Wizards could go dumpster diving through classes with sped up spell casting like the Trapsmith. I know by RAW Archivists can do it, but Archivists don't have a spell list (their default spells are Cleric but they can learn any divine spell).

[BeholderSlayer]

Well, Wizards can already abuse the spell learning mechanics to get Arcane scrolls of Heal and similar... And that's core only.

I've seen this before, but I've never bought it. The argument goes that a Wizard can cast any spell written in their spell book, so just get a Cleric to write their better spells in a Wizard's book. The problem is there is a very specific line under spellcasting which says that Wizards cast spells from the Wizard list. Wizards can't even use the spell research rules to make their own cure spells, those rules specifically say that Wizards can't research spells like that.

Actually, the method involves getting a scroll from a creature who can cast divine spells as arcane spells (nagas, certain true dragons).

Ah, but the thing is that Wizards can't cast every arcane spell, they can only cast spells on the Wizard list. Otherwise Wizards could go dumpster diving through classes with sped up spell casting like the Trapsmith. I know by RAW Archivists can do it, but Archivists don't have a spell list (their default spells are Cleric but they can learn any divine spell).

Slap the dragon versions onto a Drake Helm, now you don't need to have it on your spell list. Of course this really only works for sorcerers, but whatever.

Also, I think ESL got errataed or FAQed at some point to only use the normal energy types.

My PHB2 errata just changed the wording of the feat a little bit, but it means the same thing. It doesn't reference any limitations on energy types.

[cru]

Also, I think ESL got errataed or FAQed at some point to only use the normal energy types.

My PHB2 errata just changed the wording of the feat a little bit, but it means the same thing. It doesn't reference any limitations on energy types.

PHB2 errata says:
When preparing that spell, you can alter the energy type of the damage it deals to some other energy type of your choosing.
D&D Glossary says:
energy damage: Damage caused by one of five types of energy (not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.

[BeholderSlayer]

ah, didnt look at the glossary. nice homework!

[jameswilliamogle]

Make it negative energy then, and take Tomb Tainted Soul.