Evaluate these house rules.

[BeholderSlayer]

There would be if people didn't get so butthurt about things people say on the internet. I still stay in touch, personally.

[Bauglir]

Not to be a total douche, but are these posts in any way necessary?

[Midnight_v]

You mean the commentary about how I think these are some of the best houserules ever? In a "Evaluate these house rules thread?"
Wholely appropriate in my opinion.
There are a couple things I think could use some improvement on now that I think of it. 1. Were gonna allow the factotum, I'm not sure what thats about but I can understand it being for sunic the way the paladin used to be for me, an annoyance. I'd like to take a hard look at the iron heart surge rewrite... removing gate and shape change, but not timestop, and I'm not sure celerity needs to be removed ones you've taken away those two spells. Having calling removed is pretty useful.
  Its amazing, Sunic really has such a grasp on the game, and what needs to be edited fixed. I think the thing about the fighter being a level 6 class is pretty funny but it certainly needs more class features, so I can understand people just saying "No" to that as well. I like these because they take into account the real brokeness with minimal complaints about things that are simply strong.

[BeholderSlayer]

You mean the commentary about how I think these are some of the best houserules ever? In a "Evaluate these house rules thread?"
Wholely appropriate in my opinion.
There are a couple things I think could use some improvement on now that I think of it. 1. Were gonna allow the factotum, I'm not sure what thats about but I can understand it being for sunic the way the paladin used to be for me, an annoyance. I'd like to take a hard look at the iron heart surge rewrite... removing gate and shape change, but not timestop, and I'm not sure celerity needs to be removed ones you've taken away those two spells. Having calling removed is pretty useful.
  Its amazing, Sunic really has such a grasp on the game, and what needs to be edited fixed. I think the thing about the fighter being a level 6 class is pretty funny but it certainly needs more class features, so I can understand people just saying "No" to that as well. I like these because they take into account the real brokeness with minimal complaints about things that are simply strong.

I think Shapechange could be fixed in a way that makes it balanced, a big one being just removing access to racial spellcasting.

[Midnight_v]

Its a hard one though isn't it? My question with that is ... is the concept broken? I don't mind polymorph, and really it should just be something like polymorph greater, but theres some things that it shouldn't do eve.

[BeholderSlayer]

Its a hard one though isn't it? My question with that is ... is the concept broken? I don't mind polymorph, and really it should just be something like polymorph greater, but theres some things that it shouldn't do eve.

I agree, the question is...where is the line? That's tough.

I have made a gentlemen's agreement not to use Polymorph in my current campaign.

[Midnight_v]

Its a hard one though isn't it? My question with that is ... is the concept broken? I don't mind polymorph, and really it should just be something like polymorph greater, but theres some things that it shouldn't do eve.

I agree, the question is...where is the line? That's tough.

I have made a gentlemen's agreement not to use Polymorph in my current campaign.

I'm not going to lie here, I've found that polymorph isn't "broken" so much as that it makes warriors cry when they don't have it.
The truth is it just lets people be a type of gish and all of the monsters with the awesome tag are atually gish anyway primarilly so lets we should seriously consider that for a second.
 I don't mind seeing people combat polymorph when they're in a group with Tob guys, same thing with wildshape really. My only annoyance is with people who don't have the forms looked up beforehand. I can't stomach that because its slows down my dm'ing while I wait.
 So yeah what is the line? I'm pretty sure the shapechange changing your actual "type" is the first part that needs to go. 

[Unbeliever]

I typically don't mind Polymorph, but like Midnight, everyone needs to have their stuff statted up ahead of time.  That usually precipitates some negotiation as to what are reasonable forms.  So, yeah, there's that, which isn't all that helpful for a line.

Shapechange can get things really pear-shaped, though, since there's bound to be some idiosyncratic Ex or Su ability that completely throws things.

Personally, I find Polymorph a little bit too easy.  I prefer to optimize gishes and other types w/out it nowadays.  If I were going to replace it, I'd probably list a few archetypal forms that I think are reasonable for given levels of play, and those would serve as guidelines.  Or, I'd go the route of the Bite of X spells, which is essentially what Pathfinder did.

Actually, don't Frank and K suggest, as one alternative, just using all of the stats from the monster.  Meaning, that when you cast Shapechange (and possibly Polymorph, etc.), you are, for all intents and purposes, a Planetar or whatever.  I kind of like that, especially for Shapechange, whose primary selling point is supposed to its uber flexibility.  So, I'd have 2 lines of spells, the gishy buff one that would be along the lines of a Bite of X spell, and the other just a "use the stats from this monster."  Both would probably be pegged to CR, which isn't a perfect measure, but probably good enough, and worlds better than hit dice.  


EDIT:  there is a bit of thread necromancy here.  I'm like 50/50 on the OP's rules suggestions.  As usual, I think he overstates things, but about half of the things discussed, or some form of them, have also filtered into my D&D campaigns.  I do think that there's a very specific style of play assumed, however.  This is also true of Frank & K, but I feel they are more up front about it. 

[BeholderSlayer]

Its a hard one though isn't it? My question with that is ... is the concept broken? I don't mind polymorph, and really it should just be something like polymorph greater, but theres some things that it shouldn't do eve.

I agree, the question is...where is the line? That's tough.

I have made a gentlemen's agreement not to use Polymorph in my current campaign.

I'm not going to lie here, I've found that polymorph isn't "broken" so much as that it makes warriors cry when they don't have it.
The truth is it just lets people be a type of gish and all of the monsters with the awesome tag are atually gish anyway primarilly so lets we should seriously consider that for a second.
 I don't mind seeing people combat polymorph when they're in a group with Tob guys, same thing with wildshape really. My only annoyance is with people who don't have the forms looked up beforehand. I can't stomach that because its slows down my dm'ing while I wait.
 So yeah what is the line? I'm pretty sure the shapechange changing your actual "type" is the first part that needs to go. 

What's wrong with changing actual type, again? It's part of polymorph, too. The whole "haha I am a Solar with 20th level cleric casting and 20th level wizard casting, and a big honkin' sword" think is what irks me the most. At least with Shapechange you have to have level of some mastery of the rules to get most spells through supernatural abilities, and you can't be everything all at once. Personally, I just remove the addition of "Spells" as a ability granted by Polymorphing/Shapechanging.

I don't mind so much granting type and subtype, personally. That's just me, though.