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Author Topic: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?  (Read 6373 times)
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InnaBinder
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« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2010, 03:16:55 PM »

Nifty, so you don't expand on what I asked - an explanation of a set of circumstances where character death isn't just a DM power trip - and instead simply call me a liar. (That's what I understand "I don't believe a word you say" to mean, by the way.  If I'm putting words in your mouth, please tell me).  You also phrased your response in such a way that I'm unaware of any response short of obsequiousness that you won't use as evidence for your belief - which I hold as inaccurate but, yeah, I'd be trying to prove a negative - that I've found anything offensive or am acting insulted.  Well done.

I asked for a set of circumstances where it could have been better, explicitly.  Here, I'll repost it for you:
Quote
Please expand on those instances where character deaths further the game, in your opinion.  Please expand on what would have been 'right' in this circumstance
also
Quote
So, educate me.  Please.  Tell me how a character death is anything more than a DM power trip, ultimately.  Explain circumstances where it's something other than the DM punishing players for being 'stupid' or going off the rails, or isn't just the DM furthering his or her own storytime at the expense of the hard work a player put in to bringing a character to life.
not to mention
Quote
Short of fudging, what are the suggestions of the hive mind?
.  Unless there's text that's blended into the background color, you've not provided an answer to these requests.

You're right, you didn't use the exact phrase "you're a bad DM."  I'm unable to read your original response as having any other tone than as a scolding, both for me and any who believe that any aspect of responsibility for the TPK fell in any way on the players.  You also said it was 'unlikely I did my job right."  That's splitting very deliberate linguistic hairs to say you weren't saying I did it wrong, and there's still no response as to what the 'right' way would be.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 03:18:39 PM by InnaBinder » Logged

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bkdubs123
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2010, 04:55:44 PM »

Wait, so Binder, to sum up, now you're saying the only GOOD way for PCs to die is by DM punishment? I just want to make sure I've got that much clear.
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InnaBinder
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2010, 05:18:54 PM »

Wait, so Binder, to sum up, now you're saying the only GOOD way for PCs to die is by DM punishment? I just want to make sure I've got that much clear.
Nope, apparently I wasn't clear.  I was asking for an example of a GOOD way for PCs to die that was not some sort of DM fiat or punishment for their play and build choices.
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« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2010, 05:43:23 PM »

...old age? Tongue



Seriously though, if you count charging a colossal dragon as a level 1 character and the subsequent death a "punishment" then everything bad that happens in any RPG is a punishment.

If you only count it as punishment when you, let's say, annoy the DM by saying condescending things about his favorite DMPC when said DMPC isn't even in the room and your character for some "unknown" reason is the "randomized" target for a homicidal 13th-level assassin then you're closer to my kind of "punishment".
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2010, 05:49:19 PM »

Wait, so Binder, to sum up, now you're saying the only GOOD way for PCs to die is by DM punishment? I just want to make sure I've got that much clear.
Nope, apparently I wasn't clear.  I was asking for an example of a GOOD way for PCs to die that was not some sort of DM fiat or punishment for their play and build choices.

Oh, okay. Do you believe player death is ever "good?" Acceptable, of course, but I mean do you think it can ever be good for the game?
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Balog
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« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2010, 05:54:10 PM »

Wow, lotta pissy-ness and angst going on in this thread.

To me, a good death for a DnD character is one brought about by either rank stupidity on the player's part, or as a consequence of a tough but beatable opponent. A bad death is one where the character had no realistic chance of avoiding it, or the means of avoiding it was very limited (you see Puzzle A, you have 5 rounds to guess Convoluted Answer B which is very obvious to me and so it should be to you as well. Make a Listen check: you failed? Looks like you're dead now etc).

I don't mind a character dying occasionally. I mind it when I had no realistic chance to stop it. It seems like in this case, the PC's had no realistic way to stop a TPK even if not all had been caught in the tentacle rape. And yeah, you probably should have known that going in.


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saethone
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« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2010, 05:58:25 PM »

Player reward is a good reason for death. When you've done what you want to do with a character, why not kill them off in epic fashion? There have been exactly 2 character deaths in our 2+ year campaign.

1) Our (custom fighter/crafter type class)/artificer detonated his battle golem (and himself) to save the lower level party (we had two different parties in the same campaign)

2) my cleric of mystra took a charge from 4 mounted zhetriam fighters to draw attention to the rest of the party (she would have survived if our monk/sor hadn't accidentally fireballed me ><). the DM used this as an entrance to bring my high level character back into the world



both of them were well played, exciting situations, and we all look back at the characters fondly. it wasn't just a toss away the sheet and pull a new one out of the folder Tongue


there was also one pc whos character lost an ego check to an evil intelligent sword thats going around and murdering people now too...lol. But she isn't technically dead....yet.
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InnaBinder
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2010, 06:00:15 PM »

Wait, so Binder, to sum up, now you're saying the only GOOD way for PCs to die is by DM punishment? I just want to make sure I've got that much clear.
Nope, apparently I wasn't clear.  I was asking for an example of a GOOD way for PCs to die that was not some sort of DM fiat or punishment for their play and build choices.

Oh, okay. Do you believe player death is ever "good?" Acceptable, of course, but I mean do you think it can ever be good for the game?
I do not know.  As I understand it, the position Empirate posited was that this particular setup and these particular character deaths were 'bad' because they were the result of DM fiat and punishment for PC choices of tactics, equipment, and feat/skill selection.  It is in my nature to believe that if this was a bad example of character death - for those reasons - then it stands to reason there should be good examples of character deaths that are devoid of DM fiat or punishment of character choices.

Shadowhunter, my understanding is that having a colossal dragon even facing a level 1 character at all is bad DMing; there's a thread from a while back in which BG Zeke essentially told me that very thing.  Having the character die as a result of my choice to put him in that scenario, therefore, would be compounding bad DMing on my part.  
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2010, 06:17:33 PM »

1. I'm not here to answer questions I don't choose to answer. I don't feel in any way obliged to do so. The questions you posed aren't of central interest to what this debate is about IMO, and they missed the point I was trying to make earlier - namely, that a DM should know the extent of his power, and "With great power comes great responsibility, Peter!"

Still, to satisfy you and maybe move on: there's no problem if an encounter is hard. In D&D, death happens. Raise Dead etc. are in the game for a reason. But death is also (at least in the case of low-level campaigns, and of TPKs) a rather permanent condition with rather drastic consequences for the affected PC(s). In a word, death is final. It ends a player's/the players' connection with their vehicle to play the game. So it should never just happen out of the blue. It creates a huge hiccup in the game by disrupting player immersion, group composition, even campaign goals and hooks. It also has some beneficial effects sometimes: players can try out that sexy new class they've never played before. DMs can reboot campaigns gone astray. Everybody is reminded how dangerous, hence heroic, a hero's life can be. But much of the time, the benefits are much less or at least much harder to see for most players.

If a PC dies in a crucial, memorable encounter, fighting the good fight and so on, that can make the encounter even more memorable. Death is an important part of the equation in this case, and everybody's fine with it. There even was a PC in the group I play with, whose back story included a prophecy: he would either die before the year was out and come to glory, or he would die an old man without fame or fortune (think Achilles). He was actually adventuring because he was searching for a "good" death - something to give meaning to his passing. Here's your example of a PC death being better than no PC death. Had the DM not acted on the player's cool idea, that player's fun would have been massively detracted from.
There's also an important difference between giving players a choice in the matter, and butchering them no questions asked (which I am not implying you did, just to be sure): "So if I jump into the hellish portal to close it, I'd likely die?" "You never know, but this doesn't look healthy at all." "Hmm, don't think I'm ready to play the sacrificial lamb. We should try and fight the devil lord!"

An example from personal experience (which of necessity is my yardstick for a lot of things): I'm DMing a modified Red Hand of Doom campaign right now. The players know the fight for Brindol is going to be hard, and supposed to be hard, and that I'm not pulling any punches. However, they know more or less what to expect. More importantly, they know that this is the Big One, there'll be no running away, there'll be limited prep time, and there'll be lots of tough enemies. I told them about the Victory Point system (though not how much they have/need), so they even know they may survive the battle but still lose the war. See, there's an understanding that at this point, even dying would be a heroic, hence awesome fate for their late PCs. Because having fought and died would matter to the characters and the story, and thus to the players themselves.
If, on the other hand, your PC dies in some random place somewhere because he didn't happen to have the right tools on hand, that makes him less than a hero. It makes him just a regular person whose luck has run out, and most people don't play roleplaying games to become that.

I guess what I'm getting at is simply: if something in the game detracts from the game for the majority of players (DM included), it's bad gameplay. If this something is a DM choosing a TPK, then that's an instance of bad DMing. But maybe you shouldn't ask here. Please tell us what your players think. If your group's consensus is "it really sucks if you can't do anything for a few rounds of combat (which you still have to endure, btw), and at the end it's game over!", then you didn't do a good job. In that specific situation.
If, on the other hand, most of your players go like "Man, that was so awesome, that Wizard really fucked us over royally! Next time, we'll be better prepared, promise! God, I'm still getting the shivers, I wanna be a Wizard so I can do that too!", then you did a great job. In that specific situation.


2. "You are a bad DM" is quite a different statement from "I find it unlikely you did your job right there". The first is a blanket statement which I'm not entitled to make. The second is an evaluation of a situation which I had some information to go on. My group, in their personal opinion, thinks I'm a good DM (that's why they let me do it, after all). They still have plenty to bitch about, because I do botch stuff from time to time. Differentiation is not hairsplitting.


3.
Quote from: InnaBinder
You also phrased your response in such a way that I'm unaware of any response short of obsequiousness that you won't use as evidence for your belief - which I hold as inaccurate but, yeah, I'd be trying to prove a negative - that I've found anything offensive or am acting insulted.  Well done.

Thanks.  Tongue


4.
Quote from: Innabinder
there's still no response as to what the 'right' way would be.

Should be obvious. If more or less everybody in your group is having a good time playing, you (and more or less everybody else) are doing a good job. Ask around.


EDIT: Lots of additional posts while I was typing this one up, wow. InnaBinder, your last post makes a few things clearer I hadn't understood before - e.g., why you'd ask for examples of 'good deaths'. And +1 about the dragon thing.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:32:19 PM by Empirate » Logged
InnaBinder
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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2010, 06:25:40 PM »

Player reward is a good reason for death. When you've done what you want to do with a character, why not kill them off in epic fashion? There have been exactly 2 character deaths in our 2+ year campaign.

1) Our (custom fighter/crafter type class)/artificer detonated his battle golem (and himself) to save the lower level party (we had two different parties in the same campaign)

2) my cleric of mystra took a charge from 4 mounted zhetriam fighters to draw attention to the rest of the party (she would have survived if our monk/sor hadn't accidentally fireballed me ><). the DM used this as an entrance to bring my high level character back into the world



both of them were well played, exciting situations, and we all look back at the characters fondly. it wasn't just a toss away the sheet and pull a new one out of the folder Tongue


there was also one pc whos character lost an ego check to an evil intelligent sword thats going around and murdering people now too...lol. But she isn't technically dead....yet.
Many players would choose instead to develop new goals for their character, rather than having them die off before the campaign ends.
1) Was there no way to save the lower level party without the character detonating himself and his battle golem?  If that was the only solution, the DM boxed the artificer into a corner where suicide was the only viable option.  I'm glad it was memorable and enjoyable at the table, but that could be seen as railroading.  Railroading is bad unless you're running a con game, generally.

2) I'm surprised that there was no less lethal option to draw attention to the rest of the party.
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saethone
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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2010, 06:56:13 PM »

Player reward is a good reason for death. When you've done what you want to do with a character, why not kill them off in epic fashion? There have been exactly 2 character deaths in our 2+ year campaign.

1) Our (custom fighter/crafter type class)/artificer detonated his battle golem (and himself) to save the lower level party (we had two different parties in the same campaign)

2) my cleric of mystra took a charge from 4 mounted zhetriam fighters to draw attention to the rest of the party (she would have survived if our monk/sor hadn't accidentally fireballed me ><). the DM used this as an entrance to bring my high level character back into the world



both of them were well played, exciting situations, and we all look back at the characters fondly. it wasn't just a toss away the sheet and pull a new one out of the folder Tongue


there was also one pc whos character lost an ego check to an evil intelligent sword thats going around and murdering people now too...lol. But she isn't technically dead....yet.
Many players would choose instead to develop new goals for their character, rather than having them die off before the campaign ends.
1) Was there no way to save the lower level party without the character detonating himself and his battle golem?  If that was the only solution, the DM boxed the artificer into a corner where suicide was the only viable option.  I'm glad it was memorable and enjoyable at the table, but that could be seen as railroading.  Railroading is bad unless you're running a con game, generally.

2) I'm surprised that there was no less lethal option to draw attention to the rest of the party.


For scenario 1, no - there was no other way really - but that was our fault. We rushed into something unprepared.

For scenario 2, the wizard had attempted some BFC that would have worked well but failed. She was actually going to die the next session for RP (to bring in the other char i was referring to, and this was my choice), this just expedited that a bit.
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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2010, 07:15:45 PM »

To be quite honest, when the party found themselves in a movement slowing cloud, they should have hauled ass to get outside it by any means necessary. If you had dumped the Tentacles on them in the same round (because you had reduced it's effected area by 75%when you halved the radius), then yeah they would have had no chance. This was the direct result of them not thinking realistically. If faced with the same circumstances IRL, then they wouldn't have piddled about like the party had.
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« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2010, 08:17:11 PM »

Quote
Shadowhunter, my understanding is that having a colossal dragon even facing a level 1 character at all is bad DMing; there's a thread from a while back in which BG Zeke essentially told me that very thing.  Having the character die as a result of my choice to put him in that scenario, therefore, would be compounding bad DMing on my part.

I slightly disagree, but I need to make a few clarifications.

Putting a level 1 party in the presence of a colossal dragon is not the sign of a bad DM in and of itself.

Putting an aggressive colossal dragon with little patience with a level 1 party which have a history of snapping out against anything, even if it would be a very bad thing, that's a sign of a bad DM.

Putting a neutral colossal dragon with a level 1 party when the party, partially or fully, is known to always charge potential or even imaginary threats is bad DM'ing.

Putting a colossal dragon with a level 1 party where the party gains the beginning of their epic quest by talking to it and then they leave, that's good DM'ing.

You can't be blamed for your players actions, unless you were the one that put them in a situation where the only actions they could take would be bad ones.
OR, if you knew that the most probable action they would take would be a bad one, then it's also your responsibility to make him/her realize that there are alternatives.
If the party knows they're hunting an illusionist, then blindly rushing through a room and falling down a deep hole that was disguised with an illusion then I wouldn't say the DM is bad, but the player is stupid.
If the same thing happened, but the party didn't know they were hunting an illusionist, then it's unfair.
UNLESS you gave them plenty of opportunities to do their research before starting the hunt and made the opportunities BLATANTLY OBVIOUS and they ignored it or missed it every time.


So, my point was about definitions. Some people use the word "punishment" differently and the associations to the word results in people reacting differently.


My whole take on the original scenario is this:
Your encounter, in a vacuum, isn't overpowered from a general point of view. 6 6th level characters vs. 1 7th.
Your party should have had prepared for situations like these, if they are experienced adventurers (and their players are experienced players), but they didn't.
If they are experienced, it's their fault for forgetting it. If they're not it's yours.

The bigger problem here, is that you didn't modify your encounter to the party's power. While some people can take this with a "oh god, serves me right. *groan* How could I have forgotten to get something like FoM at this level?", some can't.

It's like tossing a CR 6 flying creature against a 7th level party without ranged options. They should be able to handle it if they had prepared, but they didn't. It's fine to do this once or twice, but the thing then is to allow the party to escape, learn its lesson and return more prepared. Facing massive Battlefield Control isn't helping the "escape" part.

Your party isn't particularly powerful and  you need to take that into account when designing encounters.


So, yes. Your party was doomed from the start, since the only time we as DMs can throw anything like this against our players is when we know that they can handle it. To make a TPK with the reasoning "You didn't invest in anything like FoM, so you happened to die, that's it" only works for some people.

Some people like that you take it easy on them when they're beginners. They learn better that way and build up confidence.
Some people dislike that you take it easy on them and insist that you pull no punches, so that they learn better and quicker.
It's the same principle here, you need to figure out what kind of players you have.


+++EDIT+++
Example of everything above.
I ran a game which consisted of a drow wizard, a pixie warlock and tiefling monk/psychic warrior against a War Troll.

I made the following misstakes:
I believed that the monk had a higher AB than he had. The only way he could hit the troll was to roll 19 or 20.
With the SR the Troll had, the warlock couldn't kill even hurt it.

The redeeming factor:
Early in the encounter, I flat out asked the wizard player if he wanted to activate his Greater Mirror Image in response to the Trolls first arrow.
He declined with the reasoning that he could wait a turn... he wanted to save his slots. So the 18 damage he took then was his fault, not mine.
The other shot, which dropped him unconscious, was just plain bad luck on his part since the Troll managed to hit the right image with his following arrow as well.
I even asked him what number he wanted to be and rolled the die in front of him.

The "he said himself that he should have thought about it but I really should have remembered it and asked him if he wanted to use it":
The monk wanted to teleport away from the troll once he figured out his chances of winning. He has made his Fort save vs. Daze this turn and really would like to get the hell out of dodge. So he tries to manifest Dimension Door, Psionic but needs to make a concentration check to not provoke. He fails, AoO which Daze and the rest is history.
He should have remembered his psionic focus, but more importantly, I should have remembered to remind him of it.

The bad part:
The monk and the wizard died.

The good part:
The pixie gained a lot more loot.
The group learned that playing blaster wizards doesn't work well. After I gave the monk player an Unseen Seer build he learned exactly how to play Wizards and got rid of his preconception that wizards were boring that always use up all their spells and had no power after just two encounters.
I learned that War Trolls are ridiculously under-CR'ed and I hesitate to use them nowadays unless I'm certain that they can handle it.


This was also the campaign in which the party was hindered by a single Druid through battlefield control, but they almost killed him. He had only the temporary HP from his Bite of the...weresomething to help him Wild Shape into a bird, flee and heal. After that encounter, they all learned about BF and now frequently use it.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 08:35:50 PM by Shadowhunter » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2010, 08:21:40 PM »

I dont know if this question was asked or not, but did the players enjoy the adventure? Did they feel they lost fairly?
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« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2010, 09:13:22 PM »


  Relevant to the spin off question: PCs die for epic reasons; for epic stupidity and occasionally bad rolls. In the latter case, never more than one PC, because I miscalculated something and rebuild on the fly.  Dying against mooks and minor threats is embarrassing and boring.

  Imagine if Aeries died in one of the random encounter battles and there wasn't Phoenix Down: frigging stupid end to FF7. Death has to have meaning, otherwise the game loses an important RP component.
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« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2010, 07:50:22 AM »

Oh, okay. Do you believe player death is ever "good?" Acceptable, of course, but I mean do you think it can ever be good for the game?
Player death?  No.  They're my friends. Tongue


  Imagine if Aeries died in one of the random encounter battles and there wasn't Phoenix Down: frigging stupid end to FF7. Death has to have meaning, otherwise the game loses an important RP component.
That is a problem with D&D.  Once you hit level nine, it's just another status ailment like petrified or stunned.
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« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2010, 08:42:49 AM »



  Imagine if Aeries died in one of the random encounter battles and there wasn't Phoenix Down: frigging stupid end to FF7. Death has to have meaning, otherwise the game loses an important RP component.
That is a problem with D&D.  Once you hit level nine, it's just another status ailment like petrified or stunned.

Yeah, s'why I rarely enjoy a game past 10th. Just doesn't feel real; all irony saying that about a game of fantasy make believe noted  Tongue
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« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2010, 08:53:44 AM »



  Imagine if Aeries died in one of the random encounter battles and there wasn't Phoenix Down: frigging stupid end to FF7. Death has to have meaning, otherwise the game loses an important RP component.
That is a problem with D&D.  Once you hit level nine, it's just another status ailment like petrified or stunned.

Yeah, s'why I rarely enjoy a game past 10th. Just doesn't feel real; all irony saying that about a game of fantasy make believe noted  Tongue
or 7th level, with Revivify.
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A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
RobbyPants
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« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2010, 09:00:32 AM »

Yeah, s'why I rarely enjoy a game past 10th. Just doesn't feel real; all irony saying that about a game of fantasy make believe noted  Tongue
Yeah, I know what you mean.  I usually stop around 12th or 15th.  The thing with D&D you have to realize is, once you're at double digit levels, you're really more of a super hero.  It's just people don't usually put it in those words.

Josh_Kablack wrote a really good post on this at the Den:

Quote from: Josh_Kablack
My take on D&D 3.x levels as they relate to characters from fiction ( reposted from an old thread:)

Lvl1: Stand by Me - you're a couple 13 year old kids who have to run from a mean junkyard dog and can expect to get thrashed by a gang of highwaymen.

Lvl2-3: Biblo and the dwarves from the Hobbit. You can deal with a couple goblins and a riddle competition, but despite your 13 member party you need to rely on running away, gimme artifiacts, and a deus-ex-machina NPC to actually survive trolls, spiders and the dragon.

Lvl4-5: Wong-Fei Hong, Miyamoto Mushashi, Sargent York, the Red Baron: You've beaten/killed scores of people in duels or open warfare and are reknowned for it - but most of the crazy tales are documented as having actually happened.

Lvl 6-8: Conan. When they crucify you for piracy, and the buzzards come to gnaw your eyeballs out, you go all Ozzy and bite a vulture's head off for sustenance that you use to fuel your escape and begin your vengance against your captors - and that sort of thing is just a typical week for you. You regularly perform deeds that it's arguable whether they are even humanly possible.

(note, the XP system assumes that above this level an infinite number of 1st level characters is no longer a challenge for you)

Lvl 9-10: Heracles of greek myth. You're a flippin demigod, you pal around with folks who come back from the dead and you kill the toughest beasts of legend. You regularly perform labors so great that each of that attests to the fact you are superhuman.

(And since somebody mentioned it already: I'd put Corwin of Amber on keel with Heracles - he basically just swordfights with superhuman ability, crafts magic guns and has access to a variety of planeshifting artifacts unique to the setting)

Lvl 11-12: The later Slayers anime series, where you can't cast your best spells because they might unravel all of creation and you find out that the fighter's artifact sword is an even bigger deal than most artifacts. Shapeshifting Gold Dragons with class levels and archdemons are legal player characters, on par with the humans.

Lvl 13-16 Marvel Comics: The PCs are nigh-immortal superheros who always find way to win against anyone. Any villain clever enough has found a way to steal/replicate/harness/become a Cosmic Cube or Ultimate Nullifier or similar infinite power loop - if you're on team hero, you're going to have to thwart at least one such plot for omnipotence each year. People may die, but they never ever stay dead.

(Note: above here: the XP system assumes that an infinite number of folks on Heracles power level are no longer a challenge for you)

Level 17-19: DC Comics: Like Marvel Comics, only instead of Spider Man, Captain America and Wolverine being the primary focus characters, the PCs tend to be Superman, Green Lantern and The Flash. The only ways to even challenge PCs at this level is to use their own builds and combos against them (Bizzaro, Black Adam, Sinestro, etc) or to present threats who are already nigh-omnipotent. (Darkseid)

Lvl 20: Santa Claus: You know whether everyone under the age of 12 is naughty or nice all the time, you have a stable of economy-wrecking elves making magic items just for kicks and you can visit every home on the planet in just one evening. You don't fight monsters - you fight things like "selfishness" and "greed" and it's not just quixotic.

Lvl 21+/D&DG: You're fucking kidding me. This ELH system breaks into a dozen different infinite combos the minute you look at it, and is not playable without so many houserules that no two groups using it will even be playing the same game. You're just back to playing magical teaparty here.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

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« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2010, 10:13:01 AM »

I dont know if this question was asked or not, but did the players enjoy the adventure? Did they feel they lost fairly?
Assuming they responded to me honestly about it - there's been some debate on the likelihood of this within this thread - they enjoyed it, and were interested in overcoming the difficulty of the challenge this particular lock-down combo presented.
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