Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up

[Jopustopin]

You know allowing all these books is too easy for us optimizers.  I think we should limit it to Core only + Complete warrior.

[X-Codes]

however i do believe it can be optimized, and can be used in ways to get more out of it than it has as it is written.
many times when someone requests a CW Samurai Build, the lazy response i have seen a lot is "just dont take the class" or "Druid 20 is stronger" .... but these responses do not help the OP who requests assistance in "Optimizing a CW Samurai build" .... many times the wishes of the OP are ignored and they are "Told" what to take since thier ideas suck.

Thing is, I think you just did it in terms of optimizing the actual CW Samurai.  As in, it's done.  This and Dual Strike are the two ways in which you apply damage multiple times with a single attack roll, and this method is clearly superior.  So... Yeah.

I think this thread is done.

[awaken DM golem]

- use the best samurai ability: turn into a Ronin (and optimize SA); problem: if you do it well, you give up your samurai class levels and you can't get a level 20 build. Though samurai 1 / ronin 10 / warblade 9 would be optimized, I guess it won't

I think Ex-Samurai 6 might be better.  With, shall we say, "appropriate" reading of the table under Ronin, we could hit 14th-level Samurai, drop it down to 6 with the 11+ ability, and keep Improved Staredown despite now being an Ex-Samurai 6/Ronin 8-9.

Maybe not RAW, but at the very least what you get is almost worth the class levels leftover from Samurai.

Could also take a bloodline of 2 or 3 then go up Samurai 14, drop to Samurai 4/Ronin 10 and still count as "samurai 6 or 7" on the ex-samurai table. Which leaves you with 6 more levels to work around.

Bloodlines would count some things on BOTH the CW Sam and the Ronin it turns into.
Double some fun, but what exactly on ex-sam or ronin, I have no idea ??

[skydragonknight]

Bloodlines would count some things on BOTH the CW Sam and the Ronin it turns into.
Double some fun, but what exactly on ex-sam or ronin, I have no idea ??

There are no class features that can be advanced with bloodlines on Samurai or Ronin.
ALTHOUGH since the Ex-Samurai table advances, if you had say a Samurai 9/Bloodline 2 who takes a level of Ronin, you could trade away every last Samurai level.

Between Banzai Charge and Ronin bonus feats giving Spirited Charge, just grab a Lance and go to town. With Major Titan Bloodline, it would be a Gargantuan Lance.

[awaken DM golem]

Huh, OK ... maybe something possible there.

Titan Bloodline's 12th level ability is good stuff.
Of course Carni's Sam can do this too

[skydragonknight]

Of course. I just wanted to see an optimized Samurai who trades all his Samurai levels away.
He'd technically lose all weapon/armor profs., but I don't think there's a DM that would actually say "you forgot how to use your sword".

[carnivore]

other optimization Paths for this that have not been considered in depth might be:

CW Samurai 10/ Warmind 10 ... for a Psionic Flavor, still maintain Full BAB and get 5th lvl PW powers, while keeping some of the best Samurai abilities(bonus feats: Exotic Weapon(Bastard Sword),TWF,Quickdraw,Imp Initiative, Kiai Smite, Intimidate(all in 30' rad)), Cha based Skills(Diplomacy, Intimidate) .... nice Lawful feel for the character

CW Samurai 17/ Exotic Weapon master 3 ...useful Exotic Weapon Tricks to consider: Flurry of Strikes, Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting, Trip Attack, Uncanny Blow ..... would work well with Sunblades

CW Samurai 10/ Pious Templar 10 .... gain Divine Spells, Mettle, Weapon Specialization+2 bonus feats, DR 2/-, 3/day Smite(melee only) .... take Extra Smite for lots of additional smites

CW Samurai 10/ Kensai 10 .... focus on Weapon, but also gain major boost to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, or Intimidate skills

CW Samurai 10/ Ronin 10

CW Samurai 10/ xxxx 10 .... for any Full BAB PrC

 

[altpersona]

dusk1/sam 7/ div crusader 2/MT 10.  (       )

epic ready

precocious (darkvision?, see invis?)
practiced caster
practiced caster

[Jopustopin]

One level of warblade to switch the exotic weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword) into something useful.

[snakeman830]

One level of warblade to switch the exotic weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword) into something useful.

Spiked Chain or Greatbow (in the case of the archer build)?

[Beltendu]

One of the things that's getting me is the slow progression on the Daisho.  Heck, RANGERS get ITWF by level 6, yet you have to wait until level 11 as a Samurai?  At least, that's my guess from dark_samuari's descriptions in his post about Samurai strengths ...   Strikes me as kinda annoying from a multiclassing/PRCing standpoint, with regards to this particular exercise anyway.  Under normal circumstances I'd probably PRC out after level 2 and use those gloves, were I so inclined to get ITWF without needing the dex and wanted Samurai instead of Ranger.  I'd be tempted to houserule some of those abilities down some in level.

In any case, I was kinda thinking, after seeing the recent Telflammar Shadowlord thread.  Could you maybe go sufficiently high in Samurai, pick up a couple levels in Ronin, nab Shadowlord, and then go after one of those arcane/SA PRCs like Unseen Seer?  I'm AFB, so I don't know if the prereq's would be met, but I'm pretty sure I remember Ronin giving Sneak Attack.  I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will point it out ..

Flavorwise you're not so much a samurai any more, but at least a story progression is there if you needed to justify it to your GM (fallen samurai -> ronin -> Shadowlord).  If it works, you get some shadowpouncing fun on your Samurai.

Man, I definitely need PDF copies of all my books on my laptop or something ...

[Gods_Trick]

  Flavours mutable. Refluff the knight and you get a decent samurai as well. If there was a feat to combine the knights challenge, samurai intimidation and ... hmm, not that much more there is there  Anyway, you'd get a decent samurai feel build. Except you know, gimped compared to historical samurai, to say nothing of anime samurai'.

[carnivore]

here is something that might add a lot to a CW Samurai build..... from here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x
Dead Levels II Character Class Companion


SAMURAI

Complete Warrior, pg. 8

The samurai has six dead levels, the first of which occurs at 4th level. The samurai class is a highly specialized warrior who is extremely talented at demoralizing opponents, two-weapon fighting, and making a single decisive strike. Their primary dead level ability offers an alternate use of a daily charged ability by developing a skill that samurai are already good at using.


Breaking Stare (Ex): At 4th level, the samurai can internalize their mastery of kiai into making a subject fear for their life. When attempting to change behavior, a samurai can spend 1 use of their kiai smite ability to negate a target's Wisdom modifier for a single Intimidate check.
At 9th level, a samurai negates a target's modifiers on saves against fear.
At 13th level, a samurai negates a target's immunity from being intimidated for being a paladin of 3rd level or higher.
At 15th level, a samurai reduces the size modifier of a target by one category.
At 18th level, a samurai reduces the size modifier of a target by two categories.

Interrogator (Ex): At 19th level, the samurai becomes so certain in the use of Intimidate to change behavior that the character can use it reliably even under adverse conditions. When making an Intimidate check to change behavior, the samurai may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the character from doing so.


these should help a lot

 

[X-Codes]

IF that level 13 ability applied to all manner of Fear immunity and IF it applied in combat and IF my interpretation of the Ronin's level-switch abilities hold true, then this makes the ideal meanacer build something along the lines of...

X Race w/ Major Red Dragon Bloodline Hexblade 4/Ex-Samurai 3/Ronin 10

[skydragonknight]

IF that level 13 ability applied to all manner of Fear immunity and IF it applied in combat and IF my interpretation of the Ronin's level-switch abilities hold true, then this makes the ideal meanacer build something along the lines of...

X Race w/ Major Red Dragon Bloodline Hexblade 4/Ex-Samurai 3/Ronin 10

Sounds a bit IFfy to me

[X-Codes]

IF that level 13 ability applied to all manner of Fear immunity and IF it applied in combat and IF my interpretation of the Ronin's level-switch abilities hold true, then this makes the ideal meanacer build something along the lines of...

X Race w/ Major Red Dragon Bloodline Hexblade 4/Ex-Samurai 3/Ronin 10

Sounds a bit IFfy to me

When talking about a CW Samurai, IFfy is pretty damn good.