Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Sobolev]

My monk would copy JaronKs expert, dropping the poison and stealth, using martial monk variant for EWP,  armor prof, and weapon supremacy or something. Trade in DR, invisible fist, and decisive strike. So poison and stealth vs a more robust character.  Higher AC, +3 on 2 saves, immediate invisibility, and I think a point of DR. I could try to cover stealth but the martial monk only gets 3sp/level.

The Expert probably has the edge overall, but it might be campaign dependent.

You would need a higher Intelligence than JaronK's expert to get the same number of skills, earlier an 18 was mentioned to use Skill Prodigy rather than JaronK's meager 14.  You could be including that in why you're saying you wouldn't have Stealth and Poison, I haven't checked.  Also, JaronK's expert had a 6 strength, so good luck actually attacking with your EWP.  Poison was a substantial portion of the damage dealing of the proposed expert, how might you keep up with that?

Edit: 10 pages after someone said "You just take Skill Prodigy and then you're magically a Monk and an Expert!" I feel like we're finally getting somewhere and perhaps it's not actually possible to do that and still do reasonable combat damage, use your lame Monk class features, and stay within point buy.

[retkin]

Except the only major thing you need to copy is the iajutsu focus, flurry poison covered shurikens unless they are immune to poison and in that case hit them with the quickrazor, bam. The only reason your sacrificing monk abilities is because of the ridiculous 22 point buy. Not because you need a super high int. You lose out on imperious command but who cares?

[veekie]

^^
Look again, using 32pt won't do it. You need more like 40pt buy.

[retkin]

Once again we dont need an exceptionally high int, the only trick that expert has is the iajutsu focus and umd, max those 2 and sprinkle points in the other useful skills. Rain poisoned shuriken death from above with your mount.

[Bozwevial]

Once again we dont need an exceptionally high int, the only trick that expert has is the iajutsu focus and umd, max those 2 and sprinkle points in the other useful skills. Rain poisoned shuriken death from above with your mount.

Lucid Dreaming.

[Halinn]

Once again we dont need an exceptionally high int, the only trick that expert has is the iajutsu focus and umd, max those 2 and sprinkle points in the other useful skills. Rain poisoned shuriken death from above with your mount.

And diplomacy (including two synergy bonuses), intimidate, stealth (which, admittedly, the monk has too), and craft [poison] (also available for the monk). And of course, the perennial favorite, lucid dreaming.

Owing to the fact that the monk is fighting pretty much exactly the same way (ranged poisoning (and the expert is doing this better - crossbow ranges beat shuriken by a lot), iaijutsu quickrazor in melee), and the monk isn't making any proper use of its class features (the clone of the expert build has what, higher saves? Woo!) I'd personally lean towards the expert being slightly better, on the basis of better social skills.

[Bauglir]

No, my argument is that as a Monk you can take a feat and be slightly less versatile than an Expert, but have better saves, and a bunch of shitty (NOT wonderful) class features, of which Evasion is the most significant (which is a pretty depressing statement in itself, I admit). Shitty class features are, however, strictly better than no class features, as long as they don't actively hamper you, which none of a Monk's class features do, even if you don't use them.

Now, I'm not saying a Monk is SIGNIFICANTLY better than an Expert. I've been convinced that that's not the case. But I'd trade, in this example, the ability to intimidate things (which is an acceptable loss, since things that aren't immune to fear [which I think is mind-affecting, but maybe I'm wrong about that] but are immune to precision damage and poison aren't all that common. Elementals are the only ones that come to mind) for better saves and Evasion. I think the Monk is slightly better in this example, but only in the same way that 1.1 is greater than 1. Just having levels in Monk sets you up for better prestige classing, as well, and you have explicitly stated before that this factors into Tier rankings slightly.

Choosing Necropolitan negates the Monk's hit point advantage, for instance, although that is minor, but you have to admit that you're relying on the Class X fallacy for your example at least as much as your opponents.

You don't need 18 Int to mimic Jaron's Expert, because it uses a lot of skills that are Monk class skills already (such as Hide and Move Silently).

Finally, optimizing "against" the class is precisely the same failure of logic as asserting that a particular Monk build is not a "real" monk. A class is a set of tools, nothing more. If you are hanging a mirror in a hallway and choose not to use the jackhammer in your garage, and instead use a regular hammer to get a nail into a wall, you are not optimizing "against" your possession of a jackhammer. You're choosing not to use a tool that won't help you, and which an attempt to shoehorn into usefulness will only make a liability. Maybe you shouldn't have bought the jackhammer in the first place, but we're assuming that you're already a Monk and thus happen to have those abilities lying around. And the result of not being a moron and destroying your wall, to stretch this analogy further still, is that your Monk is no worse off for having all those abilities it isn't using.

[Midnight_v]

*AHEM*... does anyone REALLY care about which of these clases is better?
It... I just seems like there's no real need for 22+ pages of this. 
I don't seriously think any of us is going to sit down and play either of these
classes for the sake of the world or whatever. So why all the grief?

[Sobolev]

*AHEM*... does anyone REALLY care about which of these clases is better?
It... I just seems like there's no real need for 22+ pages of this.  
I don't seriously think any of us is going to sit down and play either of these
classes for the sake of the world or whatever. So why all the grief?

This entire thread encapsulates many tenets of min-maxing which are applicable in many situations outside of just "What's better, Expert or Monk."

Edit: My future plans DO in fact include playing an Expert as well, hanging out in a somewhat normal party.  It will give me something to do that will keep me entertained while the wizards around me throw fireball.

[Solo]

If anyone wants to DM a Test of Spite style challenge involving JaronK's expert and the only actual monk build in this thread (ie. mine) I'd be happy to participate.

You'd have to fill in the rest of his WBL, of course.  I'd be happy if he were able to handle even a few challenges!  Would it be wrong to just fly past a bunch of them, given the option?

JaronK

I think flying past would not be greatly indicative of anything since a real campaign might require you to actually engage enemies. Like if they're holding a princess hostage or something.

[Halinn]

No, my argument is that as a Monk you can take a feat and be slightly less versatile than an Expert, but have better saves, and a bunch of shitty (NOT wonderful) class features, of which Evasion is the most significant (which is a pretty depressing statement in itself, I admit). Shitty class features are, however, strictly better than no class features, as long as they don't actively hamper you, which none of a Monk's class features do, even if you don't use them.

Now, I'm not saying a Monk is SIGNIFICANTLY better than an Expert. I've been convinced that that's not the case. But I'd trade, in this example, the ability to intimidate things (which is an acceptable loss, since things that aren't immune to fear [which I think is mind-affecting, but maybe I'm wrong about that] but are immune to precision damage and poison aren't all that common. Elementals are the only ones that come to mind) for better saves and Evasion. I think the Monk is slightly better in this example, but only in the same way that 1.1 is greater than 1.

You said it yourself in the first bit: the expert is (slightly) more versatile. Personally, I think that versatility is a stronger feature than saves and evasion.

As an aside, in the monk build Giacomo posted that tried to do what the expert did, iaijutsu focus was missing. It would have to either get more int or drop one of its existing skills to pick that up.

[Mixster]

My monk would copy JaronKs expert, dropping the poison and stealth, using martial monk variant for EWP,  armor prof, and weapon supremacy or something. Trade in DR, invisible fist, and decisive strike. So poison and stealth vs a more robust character.  Higher AC, +3 on 2 saves, immediate invisibility, and I think a point of DR. I could try to cover stealth but the martial monk only gets 3sp/level.

The Expert probably has the edge overall, but it might be campaign dependent.

Martial monk is dragon. If we can use dragon magazine I vote that the Monk is stronger. My monk build would be wild monk with beaststrike and then I wouldn't care about a lot of other stuff since that right there is better than the expert.
Thus, if we discuss with the notion that we can use dragon, I hand it to the monk, fair and square.

If we don't use dragon, I think it's pretty even, the monk is probably a little better in combat, but will still get squished by full attacks from anything level appropriate, so he's probably still going to rely on ranged attacks.

I did like the idea of Flurrying poisoned shurikens at somebody. It was better in 3.0 but it's probably an okay shtick anyway. It's also something that uses something from the monk class.

The problem is that while the expert isn't that good at combat, he is pretty good at things outside combat. The monk might be better at combat, but isn't good enough at it to actually be a threat to most monsters.

Also, what's the jazz about 2d10 being the highest damage you can get? A greatsword + Power Attack gets you 2d6+10 while you still have as much BAB as the Monk for a Full Babber.

[JaronK]

I think flying past would not be greatly indicative of anything since a real campaign might require you to actually engage enemies. Like if they're holding a princess hostage or something.

That's what a Portable Hole is for... sneak up, throw the princess in the hole, jump on your bat and fly away!

...let's face it, a reasonably (not insanely) optimized Expert really shouldn't be just hammering through the ToS in the traditional way.  He's just an NPC skillmonkey, after all.  I never liked that the ToS wasn't able to deal with alternative methods of defeating encounters.  But I'd be curious to see if that build could be made to work and actually make it through the ToS in tact.  Heck I was pretty proud of my charging commoner that could handle CR 20 threats... winning with NPC classes is just more satisfying.

Anyway, this thread definitely shows why the two classes (Expert and Monk) are in the same tier.

JaronK

[awaken DM golem]

I have never read a single dragon magazine, to me its basically just people getting money to homebrew. Anyways ive been lurking here for a long time, and i have loved monks since playing final fantasy tactics, i know they are weak in dnd, but to try to say they suck cause you can use some cheese to make the expert playable is laughable. A monk could use the same cheese but then flurry of blows that poison on shurikens, throwing out way more damage then the expert could even hope to.

The only reason his ac is so low is because of the ridiculous 22 pt buy, which i doubt any dm would inflict upon their players.

Gygax would.

  ... Ahhhhhh (sublime chord)

[Bauglir]

Anyway, this thread definitely shows why the two classes (Expert and Monk) are in the same tier.

These are truefacts.

[Sir Giacomo]

As an aside, in the monk build Giacomo posted that tried to do what the expert did, iaijutsu focus was missing. It would have to either get more int or drop one of its existing skills to pick that up.

No, as the monk whispergnome build illustrated, it does similar damage with unarmed strikes (all the time) to the  iajutsu focus (not available all the times, in particular when you consider that marbles need to be deployed first from a flying mount. Note also that I due to an editing Error the monk' damage appeared to be not that of a large monk. I corrected that).

Unfortunately, I cannot reply to JaronK's comments in detail right now, but I'll do it lateron to correct the mistakes that I perceive.

Right now it is sufficient to say that I see no reason why his expert whispergnome should be perceived as anything but clearly inferior to my monk whispergnome.
Also I think I have shown clearly that all of the monk's class abilities or ACFs at level 6 are still there, still contributing to the "monkness" of the class: decisive strike and high unarmed damage, invisibility, speed enhancement, monk combat style feats without requirements, ki strike, energy resistance, high saves. And these are supposed to be negligble or crappy? Come on, they are quite powerful for that level! (abstracting from slowfall ). And-since that came up as well - are only in part hindered by low WIS and 22-Pt-buy. In fact, ALL of the monk's class abilities work even with low stats.
Only the hp advantage is gone due to undeath.

And all this while only 18 skill points behind the expert, while having twice as many class skills (the key ones craft poison and handle Animal and UMD included).

Guys, what more evidence do you need?

JaronK has also asked for another build of mine with INT 18 and 22-pt-buy.
Well, no big deal.
Using a similar trick to JaronK's "CON dumping with changing into an undead":

7th level monk (note that this monk did not lose a level like the necropolitan whispergnome expert, although in this case it hardly matters), starts as human (possibly the monastery's librarian or scribe)
STR 8, DEX 8, CON 8, INT 18, WIS 14, CHR 8.
Feats: otherwordly (human), skill prodigy, knowledge devotion, INA
Monk feats: stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved Trip.
Key event: gets polymorph any object (up to Level 20 for 1,600 gp) into an astral deva.
Skills: a lot, enough to emulate JaronK's
Items: maybe some stun, trip, and STR boosters.

Again (though this time with a completely different build), this monk is better than JaronK's expert.
Sure, an expert can also use PoA...but again, all the monk's class abilities are there, synergising well with the astral deva form.

To sum up: the expert's only advantage over the monk is his ability to choose 10 class skills (while his 2 more skill points per level are somewhat counterweighed by the monk's twice as many class skills).
This advantage fades quickly when the monk uses the various ways to choose more class skills.
When the monk then spends his free feats to do so, the expert might try to use his feats to somehow emulate the many monk Class abilities, or somehow reach similar versatility and combat strength.

And this I think is not possible.

- Giacomo

[lans]

My monk would copy JaronKs expert, dropping the poison and stealth, using martial monk variant for EWP,  armor prof, and weapon supremacy or something. Trade in DR, invisible fist, and decisive strike. So poison and stealth vs a more robust character.  Higher AC, +3 on 2 saves, immediate invisibility, and I think a point of DR. I could try to cover stealth but the martial monk only gets 3sp/level.

The Expert probably has the edge overall, but it might be campaign dependent.

You would need a higher Intelligence than JaronK's expert to get the same number of skills, earlier an 18 was mentioned to use Skill Prodigy rather than JaronK's meager 14.  You could be including that in why you're saying you wouldn't have Stealth and Poison, I haven't checked.  Also, JaronK's expert had a 6 strength, so good luck actually attacking with your EWP.  Poison was a substantial portion of the damage dealing of the proposed expert, how might you keep up with that?

That correct in why I dropped the poison and stealth. Also I think the psionic power feat is 1st level only which doesn't mesh well with skill prodigy. Though by dropping stealth I can shift some points away from dexterity and grab Stone Plate proficiency, maybe changing the race to strong heart halfling to be able to fit in craft poison.

For  hitting things both the expert and monk would be using fey craft quick razors or something like that gives weapon finesse.

Which makes me realize that tanking dex won't work  

The expert having poison and its stealth are its advantages, in exchange the monk gets a bit more defense, and the ability to take 10 when attacking or I could use a different fighter feat like infinite reflection, or Perfect TWF or the like.

Any who I'll work on it more later. Considering that I'm trading most of the monks abilities away for ones that work in armor, it might be alright

[Sir Giacomo]

I did like the idea of Flurrying poisoned shurikens at somebody. It was better in 3.0 but it's probably an okay shtick anyway. It's also something that uses something from the monk class.

The problem is that while the expert isn't that good at combat, he is pretty good at things outside combat. The monk might be better at combat, but isn't good enough at it to actually be a threat to most monsters.

Also, what's the jazz about 2d10 being the highest damage you can get? A greatsword + Power Attack gets you 2d6+10 while you still have as much BAB as the Monk for a Full Babber.

I guess the monk builds I have shown and linked to should be a good Indikation of monk combat strength.
And the jazz about the monk's 2d10 highest BASE damage is that it gets the most out of size boosts. 24d8 is no big deal.

About the poison shuriken...would decisive strike also double the poison damage? Probably not, so flurry would be better.

- Giacomo

[Mixster]

Monks don't have handle animal.
When you are PaOing into an Astral Deva anyway, why do you waste point buy on 18 int. PaO grants their int IIRC. You could place that 18 in wis and put everything else into Cha.

Still, I'd think you get more from being an astral deva than being a monk with that build. And then we can just start looking for forms that are good with PaO.

Prerequisite: Deep Imaskari (Underdark [Deep Imaskar]), elf (Evermeet, Sildëyuir), or spirit folk (Ashane).

I don't think you can do it as a human.

About the poison shuriken...would decisive strike also double the poison damage? Probably not, so flurry would be better.

Actually it would double that damage. Dealing 6d6 Con damage by throwing a Shuriken at someone is a viable combat shtick, it still isn't better than doing a full attack with them though.

Here's an expert build for you by the way:
Expert 6
notable events, gets himself and his friend PaOed into a Sahruuk. Now he is Pun-Pun.
PaO is silly like that.

[Sobolev]

Anyway, this thread definitely shows why the two classes (Expert and Monk) are in the same tier.

These are true facts.

That's really all I wanted.

Edit: Can this thread be stickied?!