Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Solo]

What level was the same game test again? Level 10?

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Yeah, Giacomo. If you're so sure about Monks superiority prove that he ACTUALLY can manage to win THE SAME GAME TEST, then we'll worry about Experts.

Yes, 10. And sorry for my last two posts. Do whatever you like, Solo (not that you wouldn't ).

[Solo]

Very well, then I submit...

The Solo Monk Build Because Giacomo Won't

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Lol. That isn't Giacomos Monk. It doesn't have partially charged wands or self-crafted gear.

[JaronK]

Sorry JaronK, you do not convince me with this.

First of all, a beginner game of DD 3.5, starting, with just the core rules, will likely NOT focus on social interaction, but on combat.

Not if they're making an Expert.  Monks are billed as a combat class, Experts are not.  Therefor, I could see a beginner (or just moderately experienced player, not a total beginner) saying "I want to be a combat class" and picking a Monk, but not doing that and picking an Expert.  They pick an Expert when they want to be good at skills.  So yeah, if anyone's picking Expert, they're doing so because they want a special set of skills.  They pick Monk if they want to be an unarmed (or eastern themed) melee warrior.

Expert fails completely here. And if it really DOES focus on social interaction, the monk can almost achieve the same, with some of his abilities even providing interesting aspects that the expert does not have (better save vs enchantment effects, resistances like that vs poison - great for court intrigues, faster movement "quick, somebody warn the queen" etc.)

That's a stretch.  You list the ability to run fast and have better saves vs poison as being more important than having more of the relevant skills?  At least the Expert knows who the queen is (K: N&R).

JaronK

[Solo]

Lol. That isn't Giacomos Monk. It doesn't have partially charged wands or self-crafted gear.

Then I encourage you to find his monk guide and adapt the level 10 example build he has for this forum.

[Midnight_v]

What's your problem Talore? Giacomo might be annoying but at least he isn't blatantly trolling, unlike Solo or Midnight. -_-

Come now! I'm not blantantly trolling! I was actually contributing quite a bit GOOD SIR! I don't think I"m being a blunt prick either for a stance in which I explain throughly my stance on things. I'm just not as funny as solo, so I"m actually EASIER to troll. All i've done is give exposition, and arguments. MEh.
On Solo's monk.
The thing is that really IS the generic Monk build someone would reasonably make. That is to say anyone who as mentioned before sits down and says "I wanna play an unarmed warrior". Many a Dm would suggest a build like that. . . many people wouldn't even know that its a joke.
Funny thing is the monk suffers greatest when he's trying to "Beat people up", the expert is basically SUPPOSED to be using the best 10 skills as thats the strength they have.

[Mixster]

What was the feat you took to get those three as class skills again?

I've mentioned it multiple times in this thread already.

And you couldn't have mentioned it one more time

Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar that I thought was third party till yesterday.

Thanks.

@TML. So this monk has 16 int as well? Why does he want to copy the experts tricks? Is his chassis really worth those 2-3 feats it takes to copy the expert?

So should we run this build (Giacomos level 10 build from his silly guide) through the same game test?

STR 16, DEX 16 (+2 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 50ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (20 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +23 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item, boots), Hide +18 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item), Spot +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Listen +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +15 (CHR, 6 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +12 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +24 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +7 (CHR, 3 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Elven Boots (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000)
WAND BUDGET: 15,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +7 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft
AC 23 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, +2 enhancement), 26 fighting defensively, 29 full defense (tumble)
HITS 59 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +14 (+14/+14/+9); enlarged +19 (+19/+19/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

COMMENT: You continue one more level with your more defensive and scouting tactics. A level 3 pearl of power can give you access to magic vestment (extendable to last 18 hours), which provides you with that second monk AC bonus with 3 higher AC total

Same Game test:

A Level 10 Same Game Test
    * A hallway filled with magical runes. - Sure Loss, what's he gonna do about the runes?
    * A Fire Giant. - Sure loss, grappling this thing will kill the monk, trying to hit it for 2d8 +3 damage a round is silly.
    * A Young Blue Dragon. - Toss up. The dragon can fly and use it's breath weapon, the monk can do nothing but stand on the ground and dodge, he might win in a grapple against it though.
    * A Bebilith. - Sure loss. Bebiliths are mean and this monk has no flying to avoid it.
    * A Vrock. - Likely Loss. Vrocks aren't that powerful, and while the monk can do something about the spores, it can still rape him in combat.
    * A tag team of Mind Flayers. - Likely Win, mind flayers aren't that powerful
    * An Evil Necromancer. - Sure loss. Monks can't do squat against wizards.
    * 6 Trolls. Likely Loss - Nothing to get through and kill them. The trolls will just rip the monk to pieces.
    * 12 Shadows. Sure loss - What!? Incorporeal enemies?
Result: -12

A better monk can probably be built that gets around the same score as the expert. I'm not arguing against that. But the lack of party role for the monk means he stays in Tier 5 where he belongs.

Hide skill says that being invisible adds +40 if you aren't moving, I read that as taking move actions, but it still grants +20 if you are. The expert has plenty of ranks in his hide skill, so he can hide from most threats. Even if he takes the -20 for attacking. I'll agree that the expert has less chance against the Vrock, which probably should change it to a Likely win, giving the expert a final score of 8 points.

The expert does have a role in a Party of Tier 5s as a skillmonkey, the monk still doesn't since somebody else can probably do his job better. He can do decent as a diplomancer. But Diplomancy isn't really accepted anyway, and that is optimising skills, which is sort of the experts game.

I'm looking forward to seeing your build Giacomo.

PS. All of your reality checks except the note about being flatfooted doesn't really apply. I guess I have to find another IF enabler.

[awaken DM golem]

An unoptimized level 10 adept is walking around with 40 HD of zombies and skeletons, that by itself trumps anything a monk wishes he could do.

  ... and where did the silly Monk get all of the Items he needs?
At the local Magic Mart, the same place the Expert + Adept go.

[Midnight_v]

A Level 10 Same Game Test (Itemized Stats for your convience)
* A hallway filled with magical runes. - Sure Loss, what's he gonna do about the runes?

I"m honestly not sure where to find this. It vague to me is this a trap? What do the runes do? Is this an explosive runes reference? 

* A Fire Giant. - Sure loss, grappling this thing will kill the monk, trying to hit it for 2d8 +3 damage a round is silly.

Fire Giant
Size/Type: Large Giant (Fire)
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft. in half-plate armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 23 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +8 natural, +7 half-plate armor), touch 8, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+25
Attack: Greatsword +20 melee (3d6+15) or slam +20 melee (1d4+10) or rock +10 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire)
Full Attack: Greatsword +20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 melee (1d4+10) or rock +10 ranged (2d6+10 plus 2d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, low-light vision, rock catching, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +9
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +9, Craft (any one) +6, Intimidate +6, Jump +9, Spot +14
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack
 

  * A Young Blue Dragon. - Toss up. The dragon can fly and use it's breath weapon, the monk can do nothing but stand on the ground and dodge, he might win in a grapple against it though.

Young Blue Dragon
Size/Type: Medium/Dragon
Hit Dice: 12d12+24 (102)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares); burrow 20ft, fly 150 poor.
Armor Class: 18 (+8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+15
Attack: +15 bite (1d8+3) 
Full Attack: Bite +15 (1d8+3), 2 Claws+ 12 (1d6+1), Wings +13 (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5ft./ 5ft.
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon: Lightning line 6d8 (DC 18)
Special Qualities: Immune to Electricity, Blindsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +10 Ref +8, Will +9
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Bluff +16, Hide +16,+ SpellCraft +16 , Listen +18, Search +16, Spot +18
Feats: alertness, multiattack, flyby attack, hover, improved initiative
   

* A Bebilith. - Sure loss. Bebiliths are mean and this monk has no flying to avoid it.

Bebilith
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 12d8+96 (150 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +13 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+29
Attack: Bite +19 melee (2d6+9 plus poison) or web +11 ranged
Full Attack: Bite +19 melee (2d6+9 plus poison) and 2 claws +14 melee (2d4+4); or web +11 ranged
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, rend armor, web
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., plane shift, scent, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +9, Will +9
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +24, Diplomacy +3, Hide +16, Jump +28, Listen +16, Move Silently +16, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Track
   

    * A Vrock. - Likely Loss. Vrocks aren't that powerful, and while the monk can do something about the spores, it can still rape him in combat.

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 10d8+70 (115 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20
Attack: Claw +15 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (2d6+6) and bite +13 melee (1d8+3) and 2 talons +13 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Dance of ruin, spell-like abilities, spores, stunning screech, summon demon
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 17, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: Concentration +20, Diplomacy +5, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (any one) +15, Listen +24, Move Silently +15, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +24, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack
   

* A tag team of Mind Flayers. - Likely Win, mind flayers aren't that powerful

Apparently No ones allowed post these things stats

* An Evil Necromancer. - Sure loss. Monks can't do squat against wizards.

Nothing to see here folks. Please move along.     

* 6 Trolls. Likely Loss - Nothing to get through and kill them. The trolls will just rip the monk to pieces.

Troll 
Size/Type:  Large Giant 
Hit Dice:  6d8+36 (63 hp) 
Initiative:  +2 
Speed:  30 ft. (6 squares) 
Armor Class:  16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14 
Base Attack/Grapple:  +4/+14 
Attack:  Claw +9 melee (1d6+6) 
Full Attack:  2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3) 
Space/Reach:  10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks:  Rend 2d6+9 
Special Qualities:  Darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, scent 
Saves:  Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3 
Abilities:  Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6 
Skills:  Listen +5, Spot +6 
Feats:  Alertness, Iron Will, Track 
   

* 12 Shadows. Sure loss - What!? Incorporeal enemies?

  Shadow 
Size/Type:  Medium Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice:  3d12 (19 hp) 
Initiative:  +2 
Speed:  Fly 40 ft. (good) (8 squares) 
Armor Class:  13 (+2 Dex, +1 deflection),, touch 13, flat-footed 11 
Base Attack/Grapple:  +1/— 
Attack:  Incorporeal touch +3 melee (1d6 Str) 
Full Attack:  Incorporeal touch +3 melee (1d6 Str) 
Space/Reach:  5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks:  Create spawn, strength damage 
Special Qualities:  Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, +2 turn resistance, undead traits 
Saves:  Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4 
Abilities:  Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13 
Skills:  Hide +8*, Listen +7, Search +4, Spot +7 
Feats:  Alertness, Dodge 
 

[Mixster]

* A hallway filled with magical runes. - Sure Loss, what's he gonna do about the runes?
I"m honestly not sure where to find this. It vague to me is this a trap? What do the runes do? Is this an explosive runes reference?

I'm uncertain too, I just grabbed the SGT of some website. It really isn't that good, but it's the only trick we have to gauge a class's power outside of the Tier system, and since this is a discussion of the Tier system saying that Expert and Monk are about the same because they are in the same tier would be sort of circular logic.

[Midnight_v]

* A hallway filled with magical runes. - Sure Loss, what's he gonna do about the runes?
I"m honestly not sure where to find this. It vague to me is this a trap? What do the runes do? Is this an explosive runes reference?

I'm uncertain too, I just grabbed the SGT of some website. It really isn't that good, but it's the only trick we have to gauge a class's power outside of the Tier system, and since this is a discussion of the Tier system saying that Expert and Monk are about the same because they are in the same tier would be sort of circular logic.

Maybe it'd be better to replace for our purposes with 2 cr 8 traps or a cr10 trap, in a halway.
Also the illithid can't be posted as such. I was thinking of putting 2  CR 8 Aristocrat vampires there (we could make the same damn thing with them) , or Just using the Morhg Creature but it has like twice the ac and hp.
meh... I'm sure well all have a MMI around somewhere.

[Sir Giacomo]

(possibly once more before internet cutoff  )

Ah, I see.
New levels of ”fairness” are tried … by limiting the monk to a core-only environment while giving all rules possible to the expert (and retaining the illegal parts). And, of course, quoting out of context by using the example level 10 build of my monk guide which 1) is supposed to work in a party (hence the pearls of power and rod of extend reading helps sometimes); 2) ignores the whole idea of UMD and wands and 3) ignores also what I said about the tactics in these levels for this kind of monk build.

Maybe I can help…

So should we run this build (Giacomos level 10 build from his silly guide) through the same game test?

STR 16, DEX 16 (+2 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 50ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (20 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +23 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item, boots), Hide +18 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item), Spot +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Listen +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +15 (CHR, 6 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +12 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +24 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +7 (CHR, 3 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Elven Boots (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000)
WAND BUDGET: 15,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +7 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft
AC 23 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, +2 enhancement), 26 fighting defensively, 29 full defense (tumble)
HITS 59 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +14 (+14/+14/+9); enlarged +19 (+19/+19/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

COMMENT: You continue one more level with your more defensive and scouting tactics. A level 3 pearl of power can give you access to magic vestment (extendable to last 18 hours), which provides you with that second monk AC bonus with 3 higher AC total

Let me see. First of all, as I said, the party-relevant items go. So that’s 14,000 that can be used for other stuff. I go for a necklace of adaptation and a better cloak of +2 resistance and +1 more on the spiked chain.
Then, what are the typical items that can synergise with this kind of monk? Well grapple could deserve a boost. So let’s throw in some wands of enlarge, bull’s strength, as well as ray of enfeeblement (to weaken those nasty monsters). Two of each, that’s a total of 7,500.
Then maybe for the remaining 8,000 gold lots of good 1st level spells, again two each:
CLW, Mage Armour, shillelagh and possibly shield (another 6,000 so far). That should do it for now (more later maybe).
Have I overlooked anything like some other posters? Ah yes, that nice little gem – eversmoking bottle, synergizing well with the monk’s high speed, stealth and blind-fight feat. More about this later.

Same Game test:

A Level 10 Same Game Test
    * A hallway filled with magical runes. - Sure Loss, what's he gonna do about the runes?
Well, this is not really the monk’s role. But a joker monk’s specialized also in fighting magic-users? What he could do is get a 375 wand of detect magic to at least notice potential threats. Also, wands of comprehend languages and erase are only 750 gp each and should deal with most situations. Also entirely affordable. So yes – he can handle this first test.
    * A Fire Giant. - Sure loss, grappling this thing will kill the monk, trying to hit it for 2d8 +3 damage a round is silly.
It would be silly, if only it would be just 2d8+3 damage. You chose to ignore the enlarge buff that I even explicitly mentioned which his so typical of monk sceptics/haters, even if it gets repeated over and over again. Maybe they do not WANT to acknowledge this and – gasp – at long last admit that they are wrong? Anyhow. With enlarge and bull’s strength up, the monk has +21 grapple check.  Hit the fire giant with a couple of rays of enfeeblement should do the trick. The monk is stealthier, has a higher movement.
    * A Young Blue Dragon. - Toss up. The dragon can fly and use it's breath weapon, the monk can do nothing but stand on the ground and dodge, he might win in a grapple against it though.
I still think what is meant here is a adult young blue dragon. If that is the case, I acknowledge defeat. If it is a young dragon, it just gets outgrappled while its breath weapons hardly do a thing. Next.
    * A Bebilith. - Sure loss. Bebiliths are mean and this monk has no flying to avoid it.
The bebilith suffers the fate of the fire giant. It is also slower than the monk, loses the stealth game, and will slowly lose its grappling advantage (has no SR). In case the poison attack could pose a problem until the joker monk can pin the bebilith with a full attack, he might just activate the bottle beforehand to give it 50% miss chance.
    * A Vrock. - Likely Loss. Vrocks aren't that powerful, and while the monk can do something about the spores, it can still rape him in combat.
Yep, the vrock’s quite tough – in particular due to its SR preventing the ray of enfeeblement trick. But luckily the monk fully buffed will still be superior when grappling. It could grapple the vrock to death faster than its spores can do decisive damage. The Vrock can escape the grapple with its teleport ability, and also avoid direct combat fly up – but the joker monk similarly can get the smoke screen up and move silently away. Probably a draw here.
    * A tag team of Mind Flayers. - Likely Win, mind flayers aren't that powerful
Completely in agreement, also in part due to the high will save of the monk vs enchantment effects.
    * An Evil Necromancer. - Sure loss. Monks can't do squat against wizards.
This question was the subject of discssuion of a 70 pages thread over at GiTP and it still goes on. Suffice to say that this evil necromancer is based on the npc wizard in the DMG, also with npc wealth for magic items.
    * 6 Trolls. Likely Loss - Nothing to get through and kill them. The trolls will just rip the monk to pieces.
Easy one. Overwhelming odds: bottle activated, blind-fight them one after another, when realizing that they do not die (see how I avoid metagaming )but can’t do much due to remaining choking in the smoke, the monk can choose to just pass them and move on.
    * 12 Shadows. Sure loss - What!? Incorporeal enemies?
Spiked chain. Combat reflexes for up to 4 AoOs. Wand budget. Use faster movement to buff. Shillelagh staff. Enlarge. Combat reflexes.Fighting defensifely. Touch AC of 19 (possibly with mage armour 23 vs the shadows).  Keep’em coming.
Result: -12
Exact count not needed, since it is clearly better than the illegal non-core expert

A better monk can probably be built that gets around the same score as the expert. I'm not arguing against that. But the lack of party role for the monk means he stays in Tier 5 where he belongs.

“Where he belongs” reveals the entire fiat nature of your monk-rating. Try to discuss and experiment and optimize a bit more with this class first, instead of trying your best to ignore its class features and possible synergies. In particular trying to compare it to an npc class with the  preset idea that somehow of course +1 skill point/level is going to be better than a whole set of class abilities is not the path to the truth, I daresay. It is just useless and borders on trolling.
Having said that, I do see some ways to improve core monk builds since I developed that monk guide over three years ago. For instance, choosing improved disarm instead of improved trip probably is no longer my way to go about it – although the improved disarm was there at the time to provide another way to attack a caster – readying a disarm vs the components held. Well…somewhat obscure idea I must admit by now!

I'm looking forward to seeing your build Giacomo. [/quote]

Glad to have helped – the joker monk entry – when used correctly – is enough.

PS. All of your reality checks except the note about being flatfooted doesn't really apply. I guess I have to find another IF enabler. [/quote]

By all means do so – and also reconsider to ignore my other remarks. And also, if you wish to compare any expert of yours to the joker monk, also use core rules only.

- Giacomo

[JaronK]

Maybe it'd be better to replace for our purposes with 2 cr 8 traps or a cr10 trap, in a halway.
Also the illithid can't be posted as such. I was thinking of putting 2  CR 8 Aristocrat vampires there (we could make the same damn thing with them) , or Just using the Morhg Creature but it has like twice the ac and hp.
meh... I'm sure well all have a MMI around somewhere.

Undead are already in the challenge, so having too  much of them just makes the Rogues look worse and the Clerics work better.  Just run with the Illithid and hope everyone can manage.

JaronK

[Bauglir]

Again, I submit that that Same Game Test run above is flawed, because you had a Monk doing the Monk equivalent of a Wizard casting Fireball all day long.

[Solo]

Fireball would work on the Mind Flayers and Trolls.

[Midnight_v]

Maybe it'd be better to replace for our purposes with 2 cr 8 traps or a cr10 trap, in a halway.
Also the illithid can't be posted as such. I was thinking of putting 2  CR 8 Aristocrat vampires there (we could make the same damn thing with them) , or Just using the Morhg Creature but it has like twice the ac and hp.
meh... I'm sure well all have a MMI around somewhere.

Undead are already in the challenge, so having too  much of them just makes the Rogues look worse and the Clerics work better.  Just run with the Illithid and hope everyone can manage.

JaronK

Ah I see. Smart point. Kudos.
I don't agree with the results from Giacomo's post. I'll let someone else tackle most of it.
Anyone else think the shadows pwn this one? Shadow are really strong closet trolls, the pretty much always ambush and drain strength. The twelve shadows are incorpreal, and his spiked chain is listed as Masterwork. So until he buffs it I don't think he can damge them at all, as they are immune to all non-magic attack types. They pretty much surround you coming up out of the ground an through walls so even if you try to charge through them they're still going to cripple via str draining Aoe's.
Sure loss.
Also... while the magical runes are too vague for my taste. The Erase spell requires a Caster level check Dc15, which you may or not be able to do.

Hit the fire giant with a couple of rays of enfeeblement should do the trick.

Someone...Correct me If I'm wrong but this wouldn't stack, last I checked.

This question was the subject of discssuion of a 70 pages thread over at GiTP and it still goes on. Suffice to say that this evil necromancer is based on the npc wizard in the DMG, also with npc wealth for magic items

Its not even a debate here. Its a sure loss. Even if we base it on the "Npc" Wizard in the dmg... because we'd still have to make it a necromancer. Which means it'd be a fucntioning wizard which means, Sure loss.

 Lastly is there anything done here that is non WBL related? I see why they tried to standardize the Test over on The Den that time.
I don't see how this is any different than any class pulling those same shennanigans with wands/potion buffs? Or is that the point being made in and of itself?
Classes don't matter vs, the strength of Umd?

edit:
Hm... I gotta get better at this 

[Lycanthromancer]

Again, I submit that that Same Game Test run above is flawed, because you had a Monk doing the Monk equivalent of a Wizard casting Fireball all day long.

How about the Turing test?

[JaronK]

Lastly is there anything done here that is non WBL related? I see why they tried to standardize the Test over on The Den that time.
I don't see how this is any different than any class pulling those same shennanigans with wands/potion buffs? Or is that the point being made in and of itself?
Classes don't matter vs, the strength of Umd?

Exactly, it's the Class X fallacy... a lot of this is bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the classes themselves, then testing the build, then claiming that the build proves the class is strong.  But it doesn't matter what class you use because that's irrelevant.  A test for how good Monks are should be using Monk abilities (Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strikes, etc).  A test for how good Experts are should be using Expert abilities (lots of class skills).  Everything else is just testing optimization ability, power of WBL, power of feats, or whatever else.  Using a ton of cross class UMD to get strong enough and then claiming that means Monks are strong is like saying Commoners are really strong because a Black Ethergaunt Commoner 1 can totally cast lots of spells.

JaronK

[BrainCandy]

Expert buys wand of trollshape. Monk decides to go home and rethink his life.