Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Bozwevial]

- the bat as a subterranean creature (I think) will not be happy when flying outside. Pushing it eats up a standard action per round.

Some problems with this:

1) Pushing an animal is done to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know or to get it to perform a forced march/hustle, not to get it to act in an environment with which it is unfamiliar or uncomfortable.

2) The desmodu bat does not have any form of light sensitivity, nor does its stat block or description indicate that it would be uncomfortable in the open air.

[Sir Giacomo]

To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles.

How often do you see bats flying around in plain sunlight? Conversely, how often will you be able to ride a horse into a deep underground area?

But admittedly, since I do not have the MM II available, the stat block there may not have anything against it (hence my cautious wording). You may have also noticed that this criticism was not the main criticism I had with the expert-can-fly-on-a-bat-he-has-no-idea-about-without-metagaming-tactics.

I'll go to bed now...

- Giacomo

[Bozwevial]

To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles.

How often do you see bats flying around in plain sunlight? Conversely, how often will you be able to ride a horse into a deep underground area?

Ignoring the fact that the bat in question is not averse to light, I'd say that since it's meant for riding, it would know the Come trick, which gets an animal to go somewhere it normally would not. Thus, pushing the animal is not required; the trick in question is already known.

[Solo]

How often do you see bats flying around in plain sunlight?

Often enough mate

[lans]

What was the feat you took to get those three as class skills again?

I've mentioned it multiple times in this thread already.

And you couldn't have mentioned it one more time

Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar that I thought was third party till yesterday.

[JaronK]

To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles.

How often do you see bats flying around in plain sunlight?

Seriously?  Somewhat regularly.  There's bats in this area.  They prefer the night because they have advantages there, but they're quite willing to come out in the day.  And they definitely go outside... they sleep in caves and under bellfries and such, but they hunt outside.  

Conversely, how often will you be able to ride a horse into a deep underground area?

That's more a lack of giant underground cities with enough space to accept a horse than anything else.

And let's be clear, Desmoderu Hunting Bats and War Bats are trained domestic creatures that accept orders as well as any horse.  They're the Desmoderu equivalent of a Horse, really.  They have no sensitivity to light... in fact, they lack Darkvision and in the 3.5 update their Blindsight became Blindsense, which actually means they have miss chances in darkness.  A silly change, but there you go.

As to pulling out all the stops... you're optimizing pretty hard.  You're also pushing the build to do things the Monk class is not designed to do and has no actual support for (stuff like UMD).  Obviously, an equivalent Expert would have to do the same.  But the truth is if you handed both classes to people with only a basic knowledge of the game, neither would do all that great... the Monk would have trouble fighting things, while the Expert would actually be better in his areas of strength (skills and such) but probably be near worthless in combat.

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, so the Desmodu bat does not need to be pushed when flying in broad daylight.

And JaronK, I somehow have the feeling that when beginning players play Expert and Monk the latter will perform much better overall. Beginners actually will never even get the idea to play an npc class when they start playing.
And if they do, almost 100% of their class abilities have to be chosen - which is quite difficult to do when intending to make a powerful character, when you still do not know anything about the many options out there (even in core).
Meanwhile, the monk character just scales automatically for: damage, healing, extra attacks, all strong saves, immunities etc. Things where you have to plan and choose (feats, bonus feats, skills) have a much smaller proportion than the expert.

- Giacomo

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Midnight_V, are you Sunic_Flames'ing on us?

[Halinn]

The expert being able to outclass the monk has been solidly disproven

That was not the subject of discussion, actually. The test was to perform similarly to a monk, being that they are supposed to be on the same tier and thus roughly equal in strength.

[JaronK]

And JaronK, I somehow have the feeling that when beginning players play Expert and Monk the latter will perform much better overall. Beginners actually will never even get the idea to play an npc class when they start playing.
And if they do, almost 100% of their class abilities have to be chosen - which is quite difficult to do when intending to make a powerful character, when you still do not know anything about the many options out there (even in core).
Meanwhile, the monk character just scales automatically for: damage, healing, extra attacks, all strong saves, immunities etc. Things where you have to plan and choose (feats, bonus feats, skills) have a much smaller proportion than the expert.

- Giacomo

Actually, I've found it's the opposite.  A beginner trying to be a Monk just assumes the class will work, takes some appropriate feats that help a bit, runs into combat... and dies.  A lot. 

A beginner trying to be an expert might decide he wants to be good at being a face and talking.  So he takes the appropriate skills, probably focused on the charisma ones (Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive... plus enough ranks in Knowledge Nobility and Royalty for a boost).  Guess what?  He's plenty good when talking starts.  Useless in combat, most likely, but still useful in general and reasonable enough in his area.  He's even got skills to spare.  Would probably grab some UMD, maybe some decent stealth skills.

Now, imagine a pretty standard group that isn't super powered... let's say your basic Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Favored Soul.  Which of these two folks is likely to be actually useful?  The Monk ends up getting outclassed in combat by the Fighter and Ranger, and possibly even by the Rogue (depending on the enemies fought... I'm assuming a low op game here where skeletons likely screw the Rogue).  Plus he probably dies pretty quick.  The Expert?  Rocks the social scenes, at least as well as the Rogue (likely better).  So that's pretty darn good.

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

Sorry JaronK, you do not convince me with this.

First of all, a beginner game of DD 3.5, starting, with just the core rules, will likely NOT focus on social interaction, but on combat. Expert fails completely here. And if it really DOES focus on social interaction, the monk can almost achieve the same, with some of his abilities even providing interesting aspects that the expert does not have (better save vs enchantment effects, resistances like that vs poison - great for court intrigues, faster movement "quick, somebody warn the queen" etc.)
Then, it is entirely questionable whether 3 beginners taking fighter, ranger and monk would really always result in the monk being the weakest. Fighter goes for weapon specialisation and sword & board, ranger goes for some archery and monk goes for stunning fist and/or improved grapple. The monk, while broadly equal to the expert in social interaction is clearly ahead here, in any case.
And finally, whereas the monk jumps at the beginner as being the obvious choice for a certain kind of fluff (unarmed fighter), the expert is pretty vague.
Beginner: "Hey, I want to play somebody who is a great diplomat."  DM: "Play a bard or rogue" (or even - shudder - a monk  )
Beginner: "Hey, I want to play a great mastersmith." DM: "Play a dwarven fighter."
Beginner: "Hey, I want to play a great sage." DM:"Play a bard or a diviner wizard."
Beginner: "Hey, I want to play a great unarmed warrior." DM: "Play a monk!"

See?

-Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The expert being able to outclass the monk has been solidly disproven

That was not the subject of discussion, actually. The test was to perform similarly to a monk, being that they are supposed to be on the same tier and thus roughly equal in strength.

True.   Let me rephrase: The expert being able to be equal to the monk in power and versatility has been solidly disproven.

- Giacomo

PS: I may get internet connection problems soon for a while so posting may be difficult. Sorry!

[skydragonknight]

I would argue that a Monk can make as good of a scout-type as a rogue for gaining/avoiding surprise rounds, and is slightly more durable (good fort saves) even if class-based damage scales much worse.

Unfortunately the whole monk special weapons wasn't implemented well either...they should have dealt something like a minimum of one step behind the unarmed progression, which would have given monks a non-laughable ranged combat option: shuriken. Being stuck in melee to deal damage ensures death.

[Talore]

Psst. I'm trying to troll an obvious troll here. Get with the program.

  I'm with it...

Nothing more needs to be added, I think.

The expert being able to outclass the monk has been solidly disproven, Mixster's build found not legal.

Let's move on to worthier issues of discussion.

- Giacomo

Hi welcome

You haven't proven fuck all. It's also laughable that even if someone submitted an illegal build, that you'd think that the other class wins. No, it means that a legal build must be submitted and tested.

Beginner: "Hey, I want to play a great unarmed warrior." DM: "Play a monk!"

You misspelt Unarmed Swordsage. Or great. One or the other.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

What's your problem Talore? Giacomo might be annoying but at least he isn't blatantly trolling, unlike Solo or Midnight. -_-

[Solo]

Perhaps Talore is cheesed off at the dishonesty, then?

[AleksanderTheGreat]

It's better to be dishonest then a blunt prick, I would say, but YMMV.
But whatever. you've earn points by contributing to the boards, so you're allowed. Unlike my, or Giacomo.

[Solo]

Why?

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Because.

[Halinn]

True.   Let me rephrase: The expert being able to be equal to the monk in power and versatility has been solidly disproven.

- Giacomo

Actually, given that only an expert build (even if one of disputed legality) has been sent through the same game test, it wins by default. Please do submit a monk for the test.