Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[oslecamo]

So basically the deal is move within 35 feet and wait for it to move into range, full attack during the surprise round.

You only get one standard attack with a suprise round, so no full attacks for the expert.

Further in that post you suggest :

Spores are then a sure-hit attack, and the Vrock can still attack normally with a 50% miss chance

I suggest you might need to review that somewhat, so I'm just gonna show why I feel why you're so very wrong

 Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock.
 

Emphasis mine.
The expert will never be adjacent to the Vrock. So you clearly didn't know what you're talking about there.

Discover the expert's square with spot check. Move adjacent. Activate spores as free action (and heck make an attack with 50% miss chance since you're at it). Where's the complication?

Moreover, it will be flatfooted for all the attacks and so that means Vrock Ac=20 for the duration. Wraithstrike or no.

Considering the expert's attack bonus is a measly +11/+11/+6 or +13/+8, AC 20 isn't too shabby. If you're more than 30 feet away, then you're eating an extra -2 penalty so you'll be hiting around one javelin per round, before you take in acount mirror images.

Now there are other tactics the vrock could employ, and don't take this as an insult but this is one the things about your Dm "Gude" I personally found so unsatisfying, its a guide for advancing monsters when the truth is what people needed and Need is a guide to running the monsters at all.

Before you can properly run monsters, you need to know how to get  them in the first place. And I did include a tactics/mentality section on my guide, you just chose to ignore it as you ignore stuff like suprise round rules.

[Sir Giacomo]

The Trapfinding class feature can disarm magic traps, though the DC is still pretty high. Other points are valid. Carry on.

Thanks. I think combined with oslecamo's many points, this should settle this silly issue.

- Giacomo

[Midnight_v]

Duplicate post.

[Midnight_v]

Before you can properly run monsters, you need to know how to get  them in the first place. And I did include a tactics/mentality section on my guide, you just chose to ignore it as you ignore stuff like suprise round rules.

Now you're just venting. Seriously what the fuck does "You need to know how to get  them in the first place  " supposed to even mean? Breathe... think before you type. This is not an attack on you bro' so communicating normally is allowed.

 I just think that the problem that most people have is they don't know how to run existing monsters. They thing they're reallly great Dm's but they havn't got a big chunk of the tactics down. So to mean I see a bunch of anti optimization "Shit" that really won't help people who think of monsters as Stat/hit/grapple, so it adds to the problem they're gonna have which is not knowing how to run most monsters.  Still thats a grand diversion, and not the topic of this... feel free to continue discussion of your handbook via pm. . . or not for all I care.

On another note,
Its you who seems to be fervently trying to deny the expert a surprise round. I don't ignore any rule, I check them before I waste peoples time posting gibberish.
I did mispeak about it making them flatfooted though, I meant being invisible denies them a dex bonus to ac. Thats a clarity issue, nobodys perfect.
Also...

Considering the expert's attack bonus is a measly

You're bias is showing 
See a rational thing would be to discuss is "How much damage can the expert really do in the surprise round and potentially the first round.

Discover the expert's square with spot check.

It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check

I don't think you're able to do that really. So maybe thats the rub we're having.
What do you think the dc to pinpoin location is? I mean I've posted the rules so... what are you thinking this +20 is added to?
You flat out don't get a listen check? So you clearly mean "spot" the spot dc is either 50 Holding still, or Dc= hide check +20 so minimum 34 before the roll
 Still all that being said, I somewhat respect you. We differ but I know you're not just nerd raging and full of shit because you refuse to acknowledge that optimization is valid. So as a Dm, I appreciate you efforts.

Giacomo is pretty much full of shit. So here's the deal.
Pm a finalized copy of your monk to Prime32 we'll just ask him to hold it so people can cheat each other for ideas. Same think with the Expert build. Then we can request he post both builds simulatneously.
Proceed with the discussion of the challenges in the presented test.
Frankly because your reality check post is not worth a damn, without retort from the person who posted that build stub.
It just makes you look stupid.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What was the feat you took to get those three as class skills again?

I've mentioned it multiple times in this thread already.

[Talore]

Interesting.

Some reality checks:
- the gloves of endless javelins creates javelins with a free action. Thus, you do not draw the javelin and the IF does not work.
- the bat as a subterranean creature (I think) will not be happy when flying outside. Pushing it eats up a standard action per round.
- the bat will get destroyed quickly by almost all the same challenge tests, leaving the expert on the ground with, in this case, a speed of 20ft. Certainly the breath weapon of a blue dragon will quickly take out the bat. And even the bebilith can jump up somewhat, has a space of 15ft and range of its web is 30ft. Only out in the open the expert may be safe with flying, but cannot hurt the bebilith expect with the wand of magic missiles.
In total, I am so far unconvinced that this expert has a good chance in this same level tests, and much less against a monk. Also, I am still waiting for the expert to focus on something the monk cannot easily emulate.

- Giacomo

a) He activates IF by drawing and sheathing his quickrazor. Yes it works.
b) Are you shitting me, or do you really not know anything about bats? Have you really never seen a bat outside?
c) Not unless the bat is actually, y'know, in the air, away from the melee-based foes, which are more than you allow.
d) Don't talk about reality, Giacomo. You're bad at it.
e) Don't be naive, you know the expert focuses on skills because it's the only bloody class feature it has. Whereas the monk has to spend feats that its so strapped for to half-assedly emulate what the expert does.

Oh, that optimizers should spend to much time and effort arguing amongst themselves about which of their pet classes are better in different areas, instead of doing useful optimization...

[Solo]

Here's something to chew on, Giacomo.

[awaken DM golem]

... Oh, that optimizers should spend to much time and effort arguing amongst themselves about which of their pet classes are better in different areas, instead of doing useful optimization...

True, but it gives the general power range, clearly.

This is not a Monk vs. Adept thread for many very good reasons.

[Sir Giacomo]

Midnight_V...Solo...please. Do not embarass yourselves further. You have already revealed yourself as trolls for the purpose of this thread, so why persist with this?
You have been proven wrong multiple times, and no choosing to ignore rules or posting pictures of sleeping bats smaller than medium size are going to show anything here. Certainly I'll not show or post any monk build of mine when there is nothing valid at all being said about the expert having any chance at all. You may get inspired by the level 12 monk build that currently is better than a psychic warrior (still ongoing discussion) as to what to expect.

@Talore
You'll notice that I have said nothing against IF used (in surprise round and first round) with this gnomish quickrazor. I do not have the rules on this weapon, so I cannot comment. But what using a melee weapon with just greater invisibility up means for this expert with only mediocre combat skills against the opponents of this same level test everyone will be able to find out quickly.
As for the rest of your comments, they are just angry ramblings of someone who does not like to be proven wrong, without any facts at all. You may wish to look up the Desmodu Hunting Bat quoted for mount use by the expert in the MM II (I think that is the source). If there is anything in that entry that makes you believe will prevent pushing the animal when flying it in broad daylight, let me know (Seriously, since I do not have the MM II at hand).

But wait... since a monk has clearly been shown to be superior to an expert and both are in Tier 5, does this now mean that a monk is Tier 4?

- Giacomo

PS: and if anyone suggests an adept with just a couple of third level spells from a limited list available at level 10 will be stronger than a monk...well...then I guess it is time for a wizard vs commoner thread

[ninjarabbit]

An unoptimized level 10 adept is walking around with 40 HD of zombies and skeletons, that by itself trumps anything a monk wishes he could do.

[Midnight_v]

But wait... since a monk has clearly been shown to be superior to an expert and both are in Tier 5, does this now mean that a monk is Tier 4

  nope
First of all cause you haven't clealy show anything but your usual stupidity. No great surprise there 

You have been proven wrong multiple times,

No I really haven't, thats actually me proving people wrong... you should stop kidding yourself. Its sad.
You actually don't contribute much... so you are right on one account. . . I am embarassing my self feeding the troll. I see why you got removed from Gitp.

You basically are trying to move on to the adept but you haven't met the challenge. Till you do. The monk loses the challenge. Tsk tsk tsk. . . so much for the clown monk of crime. 

[Sir Giacomo]

But wait... since a monk has clearly been shown to be superior to an expert and both are in Tier 5, does this now mean that a monk is Tier 4

  nope
First of all cause you haven't clealy show anything but your usual stupidity. No great surprise there 

You have been proven wrong multiple times,

No I really haven't, thats actually me proving people wrong... you should stop kidding yourself. Its sad.
You actually don't contribute much... so you are right on one account. . . I am embarassing my self feeding the troll. I see why you got removed from Gitp.

You basically are trying to move on to the adept but you haven't met the challenge. Till you do. The monk loses the challenge. Tsk tsk tsk. . . so much for the clown monk of crime. 

How childish. Use arguments instead.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

An unoptimized level 10 adept is walking around with 40 HD of zombies and skeletons, that by itself trumps anything a monk wishes he could do.

What exactly will coughing up 1,000 gp for having 40HD of skill-less simpletons erring around waiting to be destroyed be trumping? How are you going to cope with being more limited with finding a group wishing to adventure with you? What will npcs say about your pet skeletal dragon? What kind of corpses willl you get at all by level 10 from your DM?
Questions, questions, questions.

- Giacomo

[Midnight_v]

Well, there you have it folks. . .   I've done the whole arguing with fools thing.
I didn't mind having an ignore function but now that Sunics gone there's really no one around to nerd rage apporpriately against this type of Troll fap.
So I'll let you get the last word and let everyone else make their own judgment.
Again when you get ready to actually prove something send that build to prime... I'm sure he'll be willing to hold it for us for a day.
Aside from that... burden of proof is on you. Start the monk vs adept thread for a true and clear shutdown of your class.
Moving on.
I really think the Expert gets about right on the Same Game test. I'd like to see how the monk performs if anyone has a build they'd like to use.

[Sir Giacomo]

Psst. I'm trying to troll an obvious troll here. Get with the program.

  I'm with it...

Nothing more needs to be added, I think.

The expert being able to outclass the monk has been solidly disproven, Mixster's build found not legal.

Let's move on to worthier issues of discussion.

- Giacomo

[Kajhera]

... A worthier topic, in the Expert vs Monk Challenge! thread? I think, dear sir, you are trying to drive us off topic.

[Solo]

Midnight_V...Solo...please. Do not embarass yourselves further. You have already revealed yourself as trolls for the purpose of this thread, so why persist with this?

One poor troll deserves a better.

[JaronK]

But wait... since a monk has clearly been shown to be superior to an expert and both are in Tier 5, does this now mean that a monk is Tier 4?

Actually, no.  If someone who's very experienced at building Monks uses a bunch of non class related things (such as feats that give skills the class doesn't actually have that allow the build to do something the class doesn't support) manages to make a build that happens to be a Monk and does better than a less well optimized Expert, all that shows is that there's more to power level and versatility than class... but we knew that already.  That does not suddenly make the Monk (or any other class) T4.  Look at the amount of stops you have to pull out just to have the basic functionality of "beat up an enemy" on a class that's supposed to specialize in beating up enemies.  That right there screams T5 (or 6). 

And remember, the tiers are not about "who wins in an arena" or anything like that.  Same tier classes should have roughly similar effects on campaigns when factoring in only class. 

JaronK

[skydragonknight]

Same game tests are flawed in that they don't factor party role. Take Bard vs. PsyWar. Same Tier, but PsyWar will come ahead in same game tests because the bard won't get to show off his real strength: party buffing.

The only thing a Monk can do well with its default abilities is scout. Decent Wisdom/Dex with no ACP and Hide/Move Silent/Spot/Listen as well as the ability to move pretty fast even while being paranoid as all hell. Put the Monk in the lead, he'll find the traps (Evasion and good Reflex). He'll find the enemies (good scouting skills/speed). And he is completely, absolutely replaceable - like a canary for miners. You just can't beat that value in teamwork.

[Sir Giacomo]

Look at the amount of stops you have to pull out just to have the basic functionality of "beat up an enemy" on a class that's supposed to specialize in beating up enemies.  That right there screams T5 (or 6). 

What "stops" may that be?

- Giacomo