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JaronK
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« Reply #740 on: June 23, 2011, 06:29:56 PM » |
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So Jaron makes Chuck E. Cheese? Y'know, since Vow of Poverty is widely considered broken?
...please tell me this is sarcasm. Pretty please? With Giacomo in this thread arguing that Monks are awesome because they can tank their offensive power in favor of AC, I can't tell what's real anymore... @Nachofan: make sure to warn your DM first of what you're up to. That build is broken in the sense of "most campaigns will fall apart upon contact." After all, if the BBEG was going to destroy everyone and you just pop into his dream and say "hey, have you found Bahamut yet?" and then convert him to good as an opening move with no possible save... well, that's going to really change things! Even screaming "NO CHARLES! GET OUT OF MY HEAD CHARLES" won't save them... JaronK |
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #741 on: June 23, 2011, 06:33:40 PM » |
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So Jaron makes Chuck E. Cheese? Y'know, since Vow of Poverty is widely considered broken?
No, that was skydragonknight.  |
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JaronK
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« Reply #742 on: June 23, 2011, 06:35:46 PM » |
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Carmendine Monk does indeed switch all Monk abilities (AC, Stunning Fist... um, not sure what else) to Int. However, it requires being a member of a very specific order in a specific campaign setting. There is also a Kung Fu Genius feat from IIRC Dragon Magazine that does something similar without the requirement, but I think it requires something else.
JaronK
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ImperatorK
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« Reply #743 on: June 23, 2011, 06:42:45 PM » |
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Kung Fu GeniusSome styles of martial arts require the student to memorize advanced medical texts and anatomical charts. These styles favor the intellectual over the introspective. Prerequisite: Int 13, must be gained at or before the first level of the monk class is taken. Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.
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"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.
Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare* About me:I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards! Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.
Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
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Nachofan99
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« Reply #744 on: June 23, 2011, 06:43:40 PM » |
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Seriously, the other guy who DMs for my group has wanted someone to play Vow of Poverty+Vow of Peace forever. I will give him exactly what he wants. Doing it as an Expert would just make him enjoy it all the more I believe. I mean this would just give him license to send constructs from other planes at us or something like that.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #745 on: June 23, 2011, 06:44:29 PM » |
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So Jaron makes Chuck E. Cheese? Y'know, since Vow of Poverty is widely considered broken?
...please tell me this is sarcasm. Pretty please? With Giacomo in this thread arguing that Monks are awesome because they can tank their offensive power in favor of AC, I can't tell what's real anymore... No, not sarcasm. ... ... ... That's facetiousness. @Nachofan: make sure to warn your DM first of what you're up to. That build is broken in the sense of "most campaigns will fall apart upon contact." After all, if the BBEG was going to destroy everyone and you just pop into his dream and say "hey, have you found Bahamut yet?" and then convert him to good as an opening move with no possible save... well, that's going to really change things! Even screaming "NO CHARLES! GET OUT OF MY HEAD CHARLES" won't save them...
JaronK
And then he becomes the BBGG, enforcing his morality on everyone. HE MUST BE STOPPED! |
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Talore
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« Reply #746 on: June 23, 2011, 06:52:47 PM » |
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And then he becomes the BBGG, enforcing his morality on everyone.
HE MUST BE STOPPED!
This is my new campaign premise. |
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JaronK
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« Reply #747 on: June 23, 2011, 06:53:17 PM » |
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That would be the most awesome BBGG ever. You have to play a team of evil characters, with the build requirement that none of you can ever sleep (Necropolitans, Warforged, etc). However, he can track your movements by entering the dreams of people who've seen you, converting them to his cause, and then asking them everything about you. You can never trust anyone once they sleep...
Oh god, this guy is kinda terrifying, isn't he?
JaronK
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #748 on: June 23, 2011, 06:54:51 PM » |
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That would be the most awesome BBGG ever. You have to play a team of evil characters, with the build requirement that none of you can ever sleep (Necropolitans, Warforged, etc). However, he can track your movements by entering the dreams of people who've seen you, converting them to his cause, and then asking them everything about you. You can never trust anyone once they sleep...
Oh god, this guy is kinda terrifying, isn't he?
JaronK
You wouldn't even need to have an Evil party. Just one who prefers freedom of thought to 1984-style enslavement. |
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Solo
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« Reply #749 on: June 23, 2011, 06:55:17 PM » |
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Normal humans can avoid sleep if they Lesser Restoration on hand.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #750 on: June 23, 2011, 06:57:57 PM » |
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Normal humans can avoid sleep if they Lesser Restoration on hand.
Don't forget elves. Do elves dream when they meditate? |
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JaronK
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« Reply #751 on: June 23, 2011, 06:58:47 PM » |
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You wouldn't even need to have an Evil party.
Just one who prefers freedom of thought to 1984-style enslavement.
True enough. Man, that would be a really messed up campaign world, where every major character you've heard about either converts or goes underground (and makes darn sure they never sleep), because if Charles ever hears you have power, he converts you that night. The resistance would be lesser known people who figured out what was happening before it was too late and stopped sleeping. Okay, I was trying for an appropriate, mid optimization Expert. I think I screwed up pretty bad. Didn't mean to make a world dominating horror film villain. JaronK |
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« Reply #752 on: June 23, 2011, 07:01:45 PM » |
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Normal humans can avoid sleep if they Lesser Restoration on hand.
Don't forget elves. Do elves dream when they meditate? Legolas had a dreamless trance thing going when the party was chasing Orcs into Rohan. |
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #753 on: June 23, 2011, 07:02:59 PM » |
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You wouldn't even need to have an Evil party.
Just one who prefers freedom of thought to 1984-style enslavement.
True enough. Man, that would be a really messed up campaign world, where every major character you've heard about either converts or goes underground (and makes darn sure they never sleep), because if Charles ever hears you have power, he converts you that night. The resistance would be lesser known people who figured out what was happening before it was too late and stopped sleeping. Okay, I was trying for an appropriate, mid optimization Expert. I think I screwed up pretty bad. Didn't mean to make a world dominating horror film villain. JaronK Yeah. He could basically rule the world by himself at this point. You'd basically have to send golems and other mindless things after him to keep your assassins from being turned, but he'd have so many uber NPCs guarding him that he'd be nigh untouchable. You'd have this little 10th level kobold who is an epic challenge due to his entourage and how hard it is to do anything to him. Everything would have to be long-range unless you find ways to do scry-n-die without the scry part (because if you so much as look at him, you're likely gone). |
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Sobolev
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« Reply #754 on: June 23, 2011, 07:08:38 PM » |
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The expert even wins the flavor contest.
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Sha'ir HandbookBinder HandbookQuote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #755 on: June 23, 2011, 07:09:21 PM » |
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The expert even wins the flavor contest.
Tastes like chicken? |
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Talore
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« Reply #756 on: June 23, 2011, 07:10:34 PM » |
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The expert even wins the flavor contest.
Tastes like chicken? Cheddar |
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Bauglir
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« Reply #757 on: June 23, 2011, 07:35:56 PM » |
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I don't mean to be a complete ass, because that is a great build with awesome flavor, but it doesn't have a whole lot that you lose with the same build using a Monk instead of an Expert. You lose a skill or two (we'll start with Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and Autohypnosis, which are nice, but not fantastic). Without Skill Prodigy, Bluff and Lucid Dreaming go down by 6, which is a hefty penalty that would probably have to be mitigated by some of your few spells known, although the Bluff penalty isn't really relevant when you can make even your worst enemies friendly on a 2. Which isn't great, but I'm still not convinced that this giant pile of Class X Fallacy proves anything.
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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Sobolev
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« Reply #758 on: June 23, 2011, 07:39:58 PM » |
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I don't mean to be a complete ass, because that is a great build with awesome flavor, but it doesn't have a whole lot that you lose with the same build using a Monk instead of an Expert. You lose a skill or two (we'll start with Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and Autohypnosis, which are nice, but not fantastic). Without Skill Prodigy, Bluff and Lucid Dreaming go down by 6, which is a hefty penalty that would probably have to be mitigated by some of your few spells known, although the Bluff penalty isn't really relevant when you can make even your worst enemies friendly on a 2. Which isn't great, but I'm still not convinced that this giant pile of Class X Fallacy proves anything.
If this is better than Monk class features to the point where you ignore them, then both classes should do it. Doing so should put them at the same level. Voila, in the same tier they go! ...Did it work? |
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Sha'ir HandbookBinder HandbookQuote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
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JaronK
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« Reply #759 on: June 23, 2011, 08:17:57 PM » |
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I don't mean to be a complete ass, because that is a great build with awesome flavor, but it doesn't have a whole lot that you lose with the same build using a Monk instead of an Expert. You lose a skill or two (we'll start with Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and Autohypnosis, which are nice, but not fantastic). Without Skill Prodigy, Bluff and Lucid Dreaming go down by 6, which is a hefty penalty that would probably have to be mitigated by some of your few spells known, although the Bluff penalty isn't really relevant when you can make even your worst enemies friendly on a 2. Which isn't great, but I'm still not convinced that this giant pile of Class X Fallacy proves anything.
The point here was that you can pick some skills and go nuts with them. Reduced Lucid Dreaming would actually screw things up pretty bad, as he needs to be able to navigate through dreams safely. A Monk would have trouble even making it work cross class, as that would really cut down on his skill points. Also, losing Knowledge Nobility and Royalty as well as Bluff would reduce his Diplomacy by 4, which is pretty significant in this case (instead of failing on a 1, he'd be failing on a 5... 25% instead of 5%). Now, if he did chose to take Skill Prodigy... well, doesn't that have to be taken at level 1? So you can't take Vow of Poverty at level 1. And since he'd also want Kung Fu Genius (one assumes, based on what we've seen previously) he's not actually getting VoP until level 6, which greatly reduces the feats he gets (not that it matters too much, since VoPeace is the only important Exalted feat... the rest were throwaways mostly. But it means no Nymph's Kiss, so even more reduced skills). At best he can do the same thing with three fewer skills (due to the loss of Nymph's Kiss and the reduced base skills). Really, a Monk would be worse at doing this than an Expert, and at best case he'd have to not use any Monk class features at all to duplicate most of what Charles is doing. If it's worth throwing away all of your class just to get most of another class, that really says something about the comparative power levels... and certainly shows this is not a Class X fallacy. JaronK |
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