Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[snakeman830]

I was slightly off with the Athach calculations.  I forgot the size penalty in the attack bonus calculations.  The penalties from it's ranged attack bonus of +9 are just the MWF penalties.  So, the brute is apparently proficient with rocks, but without any other note, the range incrament is still only 10ft.

[awaken DM golem]

PAO was mentioned awhile back ... which brings up LoP's Dirty Trick #1.

So lets say you're a Beholder and you wanna use your Rays (a good choice by-the-way).
Most of the Monk combat stuff is useless, in that you'd rather Ray than Bite.
Slow Fall vs. Beholder movement = nope.
Grapple with what? Stun Fist with what? Trip with what? Better to Ray anyway.
... and so on.


Still Mind causes a roleplay problem. Beholders do not have Still Minds.
Timeless Body hides a strong hint about a Beholders life span; paranoia alert!
Tongue Of The Sun And Moon is a waste. You kill stuff instead of socializing.


On a Monster Beholder, the Expert levels increase CR at 1/2 what Monk levels do.
So a Beholder Monk 20 is equal to a Beholder Expert 40 ... really.
I'll take the Expert 40.
 

[JaronK]

For the Athach, I just saw the Savage Species entry.  It says the rock's maximum range is 5 increments, for what that's worth.  It seems to me that it is indeed the giant throwing ability... but the Crossbow can still outrange it.  Not that this matters, since the Expert can still be more effective even with both in range.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

What's this ranged talk anyway?

As far as competing with the Expert's Crossbow.
1d10 (avg 5.5) vs 1d2+strmod (my monk avgs 5.5) + option to furry means really the Monk will deals more. Not to mention Walk Walker & Blink's 3rd dimension inherent options (vs expert's none) and Brutal Throw synergy. Longest distance goes to the Expert big whoop, it's ignored soon anyway.

As for Monk vs Athach's max 500 range. Well it's CR 8 and has +7 to Spot.
A. At level 7 the Monk obtained Total Concealment and doesn't care, the Athach never sees him anyway.
B. Takes 10 on Hiding, while running, for a minimum of -10. The Athach cannot see the Monk until he is within 270 feet, with a natural 20. I'm 140% certain the chance to sight range can be reduced.
C. Kinda worthless to have a 500ft range when your train states hills (and also temperate opposed to dead flat-lands), walk behind a tree and laugh. Hell terrain aside, srsly what about traveling at night? Must everything be board daylight, flat lands, no obstacles, yet you still get ambushed?
D (bonus). Once the Monk levels up (to level 9) he obtains Blink and travels 1,000ft in the air out of habit. Rather than throwing stuff, he drops boulders loaded into an extrademinsional space. Said boulders have no range limit and always hit the ground, unless someone is standing in the way. At this point, who cares about the Expert's bow. Infinite ranged rocks + various enchanted Shurikens ftw.

[JaronK]

What's this ranged talk anyway?

As far as competing with the Expert's Crossbow.
1d10 (avg 5.5) vs 1d2+strmod (my monk avgs 5.5) + option to furry means really the Monk will deals more. Not to mention Walk Walker & Blink's 3rd dimension inherent options (vs expert's none) and Brutal Throw synergy. Longest distance goes to the Expert big whoop, it's ignored soon anyway.

The Expert has every shot poisoned with either Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise (BL until he takes Master of Poisons at 9), so every hit has a roughly 50% chance of doing 3d6 Con damage.  That's a LOT better than the Monk.  As for range, it matters when you're on a flying and agile mount, and can just chose the range to fight at (a range where you have no penalties and they have -4 to hit is a pretty solid one).

And this all comes from the claim that this one monster could somehow compete like that.

D (bonus). Once the Monk levels up (to level 9) he obtains Blink and travels 1,000ft in the air out of habit. Rather than throwing stuff, he drops boulders loaded into an extrademinsional space. Said boulders have no range limit and always hit the ground, unless someone is standing in the way. At this point, who cares about the Expert's bow. Infinite ranged rocks + various enchanted Shurikens ftw.

Dropping rocks is a DC 15 Reflex save to dodge (see Heroes of Battle).  But are we really going for flying via Blink to super heights and dropping rocks?  I'm not sure how much you expect to carry here, certainly not infinite giant boulders (extradimensional space has its limits)... but anyway, we were doing a direct comparison of characters at a specific level.  Level 9 would obviously be a bit different.  Though I'd wonder about your ability to see someone 1000 feet away.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

What's this ranged talk anyway?

As far as competing with the Expert's Crossbow.
1d10 (avg 5.5) vs 1d2+strmod (my monk avgs 5.5) + option to furry means really the Monk will deals more. Not to mention Walk Walker & Blink's 3rd dimension inherent options (vs expert's none) and Brutal Throw synergy. Longest distance goes to the Expert big whoop, it's ignored soon anyway.

The Expert has every shot poisoned with either Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise <snip>

And stop right there. Srsly Poison? I R beatter cus I poison by USING ITEMS! See that bolded red text? It's the monk getting two more super poison attacks per round over the Expert using the same damn poison. Also. On the subject of poisoning. Did you forget natural 1s subject you to the poison? The Monk's superior Fortitude save means he is more resistant (also at level 12 he is immune to poison). Let's see. Deals more. Check. Gets hurt less. Check. Yep, Monk is better with poison than the Expert.

As far as obtaining it. Well, nothing is noted for giving Black Lotus extract, and like wise it's better to pay someone else to craft it so who gives a flying f about picking NPC skills? Plus simply messing with the stuff prompts a 5% chance of being infected with it, poisoning the NPC > poisoning your self. So taking Craft(poisonmaking) is more of a kick in the balls than retarded usage of skill points, it's a way to beg for healing. So really it must come down to UMDing Minor Creation. Oh look, that's a noncombat usage you mentioned. A Monk is proficient in that area even with a single UMD rank (even if it takes another 900gp wand to do so). You should have mentioned summoning poison by the gallon above the monster and results of doing so, I might have given you that.

Oh btw. How much poison does it take to coat a Colossal Greatclub? Would it be reasonable to say that realistically the amount needed is enough to make a bolt out of poison? That's enough for several vials isn't it?

How many darts, arrows, and so on, does one dose of poison cover?
One dose of poison affects a single weapon—longsword, dagger, dart, arrow, whatever. The weapon’s size doesn’t matter (no, this isn’t entirely realistic, but it’s significantly easier for gameplay purposes).

Turns out the closest thing saying how much poison does it take to poison someone says the exact amount doesn't matter and isn't even paid attention to. A 'dose' and just an abstract value. It could be an ounce, a pound, a cubic centimeter, a 55 gallon drum, w/e. It's simply a 'dose' and never more (or less) than that. While it would be agreeable to say you should suffer multiple saves for swimming in poison, but RAW the amount in a dose is never really defined and FAQ says it never mattered.

So, no. I wouldn't have given you the bucket-o-poison usage either. But hey, before you rant about that. PAO isn't allowed, why should fabricating thousands of galleons of poison be? Unless you really did intend the ligament use of dose to a weapon and used like intended. In which case, reminder: The Monk bets the Expert, due to less likely to suffer ill effects and capable of inflicting more per round.

Though I'd wonder about your ability to see someone 1000 feet away.

Oh idk, probably the same as seeing 270 feet a way (can't) but no one cared until someone smarter than the rock they want to throw brought it up.

Didn't know about the Heroes of Battle thing though. Nice find. Best part of your post.

[LordBlades]

And stop right there. Srsly Poison? I R beatter cus I poison by USING ITEMS! See that bolded red text? It's the monk getting two more super poison attacks per round over the Expert using the same damn poison. Also. On the subject of poisoning. Did you forget natural 1s subject you to the poison? The Monk's superior Fortitude save means he is more resistant (also at level 12 he is immune to poison). Let's see. Deals more. Check. Gets hurt less. Check. Yep, Monk is better with poison than the Expert.

It's poison made via Psionic Minor Creation (obtained with the Hidden Talent feat) and also Master of Poisons (or being necropolitan) takes care of the chance of accidentally poisoning yourself.

[JaronK]

And stop right there. Srsly Poison? I R beatter cus I poison by USING ITEMS! See that bolded red text?

I know you don't like reading, but go back, and read the builds in question before commenting.  Notice how the Expert is a Necropolitan (immune to poison) with hidden talent (which generates poison).  No items needed (except the crossbow to shoot with).

It's the monk getting two more super poison attacks per round over the Expert using the same damn poison.

The Monk in question (Giacomo's) does not have Hidden Talent (he blew his feats trying to be an Expert and thus couldn't do so) so he can't use the poison.  You really should read before commenting.

Also. On the subject of poisoning. Did you forget natural 1s subject you to the poison?

No, he's a Necropolitan, and thus immune.  Read the builds.

The Monk's superior Fortitude save means he is more resistant (also at level 12 he is immune to poison).

The Expert's superior "Immune to all Fort save attacks, unless they can also effect objects" and "Immune to poisons" is more resistant than just a good fort save (and Giacomo's Monk didn't have a good enough one to rely on that, even if he could get some in the first place).

Let's see. Deals more. Check.

Expert can poison with every shot, Monk has no poison.  So, "Deals none."

Gets hurt less. Check.

Expert is immune, Monk is not until level 12.  

Yep, Monk is better with poison than the Expert.

Epic fail.

As far as obtaining it. Well, nothing is noted for giving Black Lotus extract, and like wise it's better to pay someone else to craft it so who gives a flying f about picking NPC skills? Plus simply messing with the stuff prompts a 5% chance of being infected with it, poisoning the NPC > poisoning your self. So taking Craft(poisonmaking) is more of a kick in the balls than retarded usage of skill points, it's a way to beg for healing. So really it must come down to UMDing Minor Creation. Oh look, that's a noncombat usage you mentioned. A Monk is proficient in that area even with a single UMD rank (even if it takes another 900gp wand to do so). You should have mentioned summoning poison by the gallon above the monster and results of doing so, I might have given you that.

If you'd bothered to read before this idiotic rant, you'd have noticed the Expert in question took Hidden Talent, a feat which lets him use Psionic Minor Creation.  This gives him six hours of all the poison he could want.  The Monk spent his feats on things like Skill Prodigy, and thus couldn't take this ability.  Furthermore, it is not legal to summon poison by the gallon above the monster, because A) you have to summon conjured things on ground that can support them and B) the casting time is too long to use it like that.

Oh btw. How much poison does it take to coat a Colossal Greatclub?

One dose, which is once ounce (because doses come in vials, and vials hold one ounce).  There are 996 doses in a cubic foot, by the way.  But why are we talking about Greatclubs?

Would it be reasonable to say that realistically the amount needed is enough to make a bolt out of poison? That's enough for several vials isn't it?

RAW, it's one dose, one vial.  And why are you making bolts out of poison?  You coat a bolt in poison.  

Turns out the closest thing saying how much poison does it take to poison someone says the exact amount doesn't matter and isn't even paid attention to. A 'dose' and just an abstract value.

A vial of poison holds a dose.  At most, a dose is one ounce (that's how much a vial holds), meaning the level 6 Expert is creating at least 5976 doses when he uses hidden talent.

It could be an ounce, a pound, a cubic centimeter, a 55 gallon drum, w/e. It's simply a 'dose' and never more (or less) than that. While it would be agreeable to say you should suffer multiple saves for swimming in poison, but RAW the amount in a dose is never really defined and FAQ says it never mattered.

You really should read before stating things like this.  The rules are there.

So, no. I wouldn't have given you the bucket-o-poison usage either. But hey, before you rant about that. PAO isn't allowed, why should fabricating thousands of galleons of poison be? Unless you really did intend the ligament use of dose to a weapon and used like intended. In which case, reminder: The Monk bets the Expert, due to less likely to suffer ill effects and capable of inflicting more per round.

PAO is totally allowed... on 15th level Wizards.  Since neither character is a 15th level Wizard, nor can either character be assured of finding a 15th level Wizard, and double PAO permanent tricks are TO anyway, we're not dealing with that.  By comparison, the Expert himself can make this poison, and it is in fact a 1st level ability.  And the Monk fails because Giacomo's Monk can't make poison at all and isn't immune, unlike the expert.

Though I'd wonder about your ability to see someone 1000 feet away.

Oh idk, probably the same as seeing 270 feet a way (can't) but no one cared until someone smarter than the rock they want to throw brought it up.

Didn't know about the Heroes of Battle thing though. Nice find. Best part of your post.

270 feet away is -27 to spot checks.  Throwing rocks gives a +20 to be spotted, so the total mod to see someone throwing rocks at you from 270 feet away is -7.   If he's huge (like the Athatch) that's an extra +8, so now it's +1.  

1000 is a -100 to spot checks.  Factoring in the size and fact that he's throwing rocks around, the spot check is at a -62 to see the guy.  

So no, you don't know.  +1 is an easy roll to make.  -62 is impossible at this level.

Seriously, before you respond to this, go read the two builds we're talking about.  One is Giacomo's Monk that pumped Int and took Skill Prodigy, and has no ranged combat abilities, relying solely on Decisive Strike to do anything useful.  The other is my Necropolitan Expert that rides around on a bat and uses Poison, Intimidation, and Iaijutsu Focus (as needs demand) to fight enemies.  And while you're at it, you might want to read up on poison, Hidden Talent, and other relevant rules you've messed up here.

Or you could do the usual Solo thing of just completely failing to read and then declaring victory.

JaronK

[Solo]

Sor0, you could greatly benefit from my style of trolling.

[Halinn]

Can anyone explain to me why the 10 ft range shurikens are even being considered a very viable solution for ranged combat?

[LordBlades]

Can anyone explain to me why the 10 ft range shurikens are even being considered a very viable solution for ranged combat?

Because otherwise the monk supporters would have to admit the monk has no real ranged option? Shurikens are the best a monk has, but they're terrible, terrible compared to most other ranged weapon in the game (unless you're pulling enhancement shenanigans, like eager shurikens or something)

[skydragonknight]

Can anyone explain to me why the 10 ft range shurikens are even being considered a very viable solution for ranged combat?

There's a 2 or 3k magic item (a glove) in MIC that doubles the range increment of thrown weapons, so it's feasible even if still inferior.

[Halinn]

Oh, and a thing to correct on the expert: Hidden Talent provides 2 pp, a 1st level power, and says that unless you're playing a psionic class, your ML = 1 for that power. So only two hours worth of poison, in 1 hour increments.

[snakeman830]

Still results in plenty of poison.  Just do a bit of zerg rushing during those two hours and you're set.  If this isn't possible, then save the poison for bigger threats that you need to take down faster (and aren't immune to poison) and Iiajutsu/Intimidate/shoot from afar the rest.

[SorO_Lost]

No, he's a Necropolitan, and thus immune.  Read the builds.

You know, my build was a Fire Elf Necropoliton, therefor immune to poison and capable of using a Composite Longbow. Oh yes, builds are entirely what matters here. Also, pretty sure Giacomole's Wild Necropoliton PAOed TO Skilled Monk can poison better too.

Sor0, you could greatly benefit from my style of trolling.

That was less of a troll as a pull your head out of your orifice. His entire rebuttal is "my build can do it, Giacomole's can't (after I complained about PAO and someone else said no necropoliton) so nyeh".

Class Feature wise, you know the entire subject I was talking about, the Monk wins. Glad to see you read my post though, I love my usage of Monk & Expert being read as yours & his.

[JaronK]

No, he's a Necropolitan, and thus immune.  Read the builds.

You know, my build was a Fire Elf Necropoliton, therefor immune to poison and capable of using a Composite Longbow. Oh yes, builds are entirely what matters here. Also, pretty sure Giacomole's Wild Necropoliton PAOed TO Skilled Monk can poison better too.

Your build was irrelevant.  You jumped into a discussion of two specific builds... my flying Expert, and Giacomo's human wannabe Expert.  The entire discussion was about why trying to imitate an Expert wasn't going to work.  You failed to read even what was being talked about before commenting.

And your build couldn't make poison either, and thus can't do anything with it anyhow.  And why are you claiming class feature wise the Monk wins when the strategy you wanted to use (Composite Longbow from a distance using poison immunity and proficiency from race) uses no class features?  Don't you think that says quite a bit?

I did make a mistake with Hidden Talent... thought ML = HD.  So, good to point that out.  With that said, considering PMC can make Cannath Fruit, it's not exactly hard to have endless poison... though that might be considered TO by some.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

And your build couldn't make poison either, and thus can't do anything with it anyhow.  And why are you claiming class feature wise the Monk wins when the strategy you wanted to use (Composite Longbow from a distance using poison immunity and proficiency from race) uses no class features?  Don't you think that says quite a bit?

For Pelor's sake read your own damn post.

A. Crafting skills & feats are crap. You sink build options into something that is dependent on campaign and argue it's value in a campaignless environment.
B. (Composite Longbow from a distance using poison immunity and proficiency from race) uses no class features?
If my build's ability to use a superior ranged weapon if need be constitutes failure, then the Expert's ability to use a weapon with less range and less damage is what again? Fun fact, the Expert has no class features. Why don't you just deal with that comment on everything you think you're saying and argue against your self as you always do.

You see why I ignored this post until people stopped being retarded? Seems like a great idea again. You moved from "who cares about the monk class, I'm talking MY BUILD LEETFTW" to "but lacking class feature support is totally a point, ps pro-expert here!" in a single page.

[Mixster]

The expert does have class features:
Choose your skills, Simple Weapon profiencies, Light Armour profiency. These are all class features that the Expert has, which are better than what the monk has.

[JaronK]

A. Crafting skills & feats are crap. You sink build options into something that is dependent on campaign and argue it's value in a campaignless environment.

And yet you're defending (whether you realize it or not) a build that throws away almost all the Monk class features for skills, using feats. 

How, specifically, is the Expert in question dependent on the campaign?  I'm pretty sure "buy the best appropriately mobile mount available" isn't very campaign specific.

B. (Composite Longbow from a distance using poison immunity and proficiency from race) uses no class features?

Yes.  You got the longbow proficiency from race and the poison immunity from race, therefor you used nothing but race.  This is especially noticeable because you couldn't use the Monk's actual attack class feature (Flurry) due to the fact that that only works with Shurikens at range.

If my build's ability to use a superior ranged weapon if need be constitutes failure, then the Expert's ability to use a weapon with less range and less damage is what again?

Using the Expert's class proficiency in crossbows is using a class feature.  Using his Int focus to make it easier to craft poisons via Hidden Talent is using his class as well.

Fun fact, the Expert has no class features. Why don't you just deal with that comment on everything you think you're saying and argue against your self as you always do.

Expert Class Features: 6+Int Skills, D6 HD, Good Will Save, 10 skills of your choice as class skills, 3/4 BAB.  Now, which of those did I use in the build I made?  All but the HD (which I overrode with Necropolitan, but notice how I haven't been claiming that high racial HD is an example of the amazing power of an Expert).    And while sparse, those are about as solid class features as the Monk, simply because some skills are actually really useful.  You proved that yourself when you agreed with Giacomo that it's worth sacking Monk class features to be useful.

You see why I ignored this post until people stopped being retarded? Seems like a great idea again. You moved from "who cares about the monk class, I'm talking MY BUILD LEETFTW" to "but lacking class feature support is totally a point, ps pro-expert here!" in a single page.

Go back to ignoring it, this post was better before you showed up and started commenting without reading.

JaronK

[dark_samuari]

Can anyone explain to me why the 10 ft range shurikens are even being considered a very viable solution for ranged combat?

Because otherwise the monk supporters would have to admit the monk has no real ranged option? Shurikens are the best a monk has, but they're terrible, terrible compared to most other ranged weapon in the game (unless you're pulling enhancement shenanigans, like eager shurikens or something)

Unless the monk picks a race with proficiency in a suitably better ranged weapon.