Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Mixster]

Does speaking giant give you the ability to throw rocks 120 feet?

Considering the Athach has not a specified range, and the only area in core where thrown rocks range is described is on the giant's section, it's a logic conclusion. Speaking giant is just another thread strenghtening the connection.

So if the expert speaks giant, he can throw rocks 120 feet as well?

[Solo]

So Improvised Weapon rules do not apply?

[oslecamo]

So if the expert speaks giant, he can throw rocks 120 feet as well?

If the expert gets an entry on the MM that states it can throw rocks that deal 2d6 damage, sure.

[ImperatorK]

So if I instead started with all my WBL in Raw Gold (or materials) and then used the first 180 in game days for crafting, you would be okay with it.

You don't get a pile of cash that you can spend as you please. You get items that together would cost the given amount of gp on the given level. That's how I see it. So no, you couldn't start with your WBL as Raw Gold or Materials, because you should be picking items, as in MAGICAL OR MUNDANE ITEMS with are useful to adveturers.
Seriously, I wouldn't play with someone who can't accept his DMs interpretation of rules and tries to curcumvent them in every way possible.

But because I just said the boring stuff (crafting) happened before game begun, you are just going to have me take the feats for nothing?

Oh. So those feats and skills are useless during the game? Their only purpose is to maximize your WBL at the start of the game? Well, if that's how you play...

How would you answer this qustion:
"Would you allow a player to start a game that's supposed to be 10th level, on 11-12th level, just because he took Item Familiar on 1st level and invested his XP in it, getting more XP in return?"

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You get items that together would cost the given amount of gp on the given level.

So let's say I take merchantile background as my first level feat.  It lets me buy things for 75% of market price.  I buy a sword +1, and it only *costs* me 1500 gp from my WBL.  Since, you know, it gives a discount.  

Let's say I have craft magic arms and armor.  It only *costs* me 1000gp plus some experience points.  That's how much the items *cost* when you craft them.

I mean, if it worked the way you said it works, why the hell would there even be a 50% discount in the first place?

[JaronK]

Does speaking giant give you the ability to throw rocks 120 feet?

In all fairness though, it is a giant like creature that has the same rock throwing as a giant in general.  I'll actually go along with Oslecamo on this one that the intent was probably that it throw rocks just like a giant.  RAW he doesn't, but RAW monks don't have unarmed strike proficiency either.

The bigger issue is that he can't hit with those rocks anyway if you're far enough away.

@JaronK, see my post for an in depth analysis of how the monk loses to the Aboleth and a few other CR 7 monsters.

Yours was good, I just threw in some of mine too.

The hound Archon could teleport into close combat with the expert with it's greater teleport. This however, would serve to the expert either getting a full attack, or simply moving away and then shooting the Archon again. It would force a save against the Aura of Menace though.

Assuming the Expert were flying high enough (I know I would be if I were doing this) that just means the Archon takes falling damage.  Also, he'd be out of actions after the teleport, so he couldn't attack (and the Expert would just fly away and shoot more).

Well I guess the monk simply loads himself on black lotus as well. Since it's a contact poison, you don't need to bypass the DR.

Giacomos Monk can't really do that. Bauglir's can, but he can't do the skill prodigy or the Imperious command trick IIRC, neither can do the invisible fist trick.

Consider making an expert sniper build, ranks in move silently, hide, and some way of making poisons (hidden talent + craft + being immune, either through master of poisons, or Necropolitan). Sneak up on your enemies, when within 300' Shoot them with a bolt and hide again. You get +30 to your hide check from the distance (actually they get -30 to their spot checks, but same same), but get -20 from having just shot, you are pretty good. Then relocate and keep firing on them. After a few minutes your enemies will be easily downed with black lotus poison.
I had a squad of 3 lesser drows (who were a 6th level rogue, a 6th level ranger and 6th level scout), do this to a party once, with devastating effects (and the party was level 9 IIRC).

You'd really want a spyglass if you were doing this.  And yeah, the Expert I made could do this (though really he should have more Spot ranks if he wanted to specialize in archery).

@Imperator:  Item Familiar requires level 3 IIRC anyway.  And he wouldn't be 11th level... 10% more exp than the base of level 10 doesn't even get you to 11.  So, yes, if I allowed Item Familiar, I'd let him start with some bonus exp.  Not much though, because Exp is a river would apply in reverse there... every time he "would have" leveled above the party, he'd slow down his experience gain for a time.

However, I'd give him the full 10% up if he then spent the exp on crafting anyway.

And to reverse your question, if someone wanted to cast spells that cost exp before the game for some reason, would you have him start at the same exp as everyone else, at level 10?  I know I wouldn't.  

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

You get items that together would cost the given amount of gp on the given level.

So let's say I take merchantile background as my first level feat.  It lets me buy things for 75% of market price.  I buy a sword +1, and it only *costs* me 1500 gp from my WBL.  Since, you know, it gives a discount. 

Let's say I have craft magic arms and armor.  It only *costs* me 1000gp plus some experience points.  That's how much the items *cost* when you craft them.

I mean, if it worked the way you said it works, why the hell would there even be a 50% discount in the first place?

D&D doesn't stop on character creation, you know. You can use those feats and skills during the actual game just fine.

[Mixster]

"Would you allow a player to start a game that's supposed to be 10th level, on 11-12th level, just because he took Item Familiar on 1st level and invested his XP in it, getting more XP in return?"

You should re-read item familiar, it grants +10% to your exp. Since the exp system works in that to advance a level you must gain that level x 1000 experience points, you can never advance extra levels by item familiar, unless you are very close to advancing anyway, see experience is a river for the problems here.
What would your solution be? That he'll just get the bad stuff from investing XP, but not the good stuff?

Oh. So those feats and skills are useless during the game? Their only purpose is to maximize your WBL at the start of the game? Well, if that's how you play...

No, they can be used if the DM gives you long periods of down time. Which you just argued isn't really suitable for an adventurer.

So If I said: Guys we are starting at 28000 experience, and somebody took item familiar, they would have 30800 exp if they invested in it. Then they would probably have used that extra exp for crafting or for necropolitan at some point. Or just be happy when they advance to level 9 before everybody else, but then realise that everybody gets more experience from the next increase.

But I really fail to see the relevance to the topic anymore?

[ImperatorK]

Sorry, I didn't check if Item Familiar would allow to get higher level, my bad. But it was just an example.

But I really fail to see the relevance to the topic anymore?

Eh, nevermind. I was under the ilussion that I have a point of somoe sort.

No, they can be used if the DM gives you long periods of down time. Which you just argued isn't really suitable for an adventurer.

Wait, what? Where?

And to reverse your question, if someone wanted to cast spells that cost exp before the game for some reason, would you have him start at the same exp as everyone else, at level 10?  I know I wouldn't.

Of course not. If he would want to spend XP on some spells then he would have less XP. That would be his choice.

I'm just saying (lol, I repeat this sentence waaay too often ) that if you don't allow to gain (for example) higher level through some "sheenenigans" like Item Familiar, then you should not gain more out of your WBL through crafting. Craft is, IMO of course, for the actual play.

[Halinn]

Does speaking giant give you the ability to throw rocks 120 feet?

Of course it does! Why, I speak the same language as Bruce Lee, which accounts for my ability to beat people up with my bare hands, does it not?

Given that the language Bruce Lee was most fluent in was Punching, if you spoke that, you would be fairly good at beating people with your bare hands as well.

[JaronK]

And to reverse your question, if someone wanted to cast spells that cost exp before the game for some reason, would you have him start at the same exp as everyone else, at level 10?  I know I wouldn't.

Of course not. If he would want to spend XP on some spells then he would have less XP. That would be his choice.

I'm just saying (lol, I repeat this sentence waaay too often ) that if you don't allow to gain (for example) higher level through some "sheenenigans" like Item Familiar, then you should not gain more out of your WBL through crafting. Craft is, IMO of course, for the actual play.

So if he spends resources you count that, but if he gains them you don't?  What silly logic is this?  

And there are no "sheenenigans" that would give you an extra level, so it hardly matters.  But I would give them the bonus Xp of Item Familiar (it wouldn't give them a level), just as I would give them the bonus of crafting (and the costs, including Xp costs if it's magic items).  That is a character who spent his resources wisely.  I've never had a problem with a player saying "I'd like to start the game with Mithral Fullplate, which I paid 1/3 price for because I crafted it myself" if he also has the necessary tools to craft the armor and the necessary skills.

JaronK

[The_Mad_Linguist]

And to reverse your question, if someone wanted to cast spells that cost exp before the game for some reason, would you have him start at the same exp as everyone else, at level 10?  I know I wouldn't.

Of course not. If he would want to spend XP on some spells then he would have less XP. That would be his choice.

I'm just saying (lol, I repeat this sentence waaay too often ) that if you don't allow to gain (for example) higher level through some "sheenenigans" like Item Familiar, then you should not gain more out of your WBL through crafting. Craft is, IMO of course, for the actual play.

So if he spends resources you count that, but if he gains them you don't?  What silly logic is this?  

And there are no "sheenenigans" that would give you an extra level, so it hardly matters.  But I would give them the bonus Xp of Item Familiar (it wouldn't give them a level), just as I would give them the bonus of crafting (and the costs, including Xp costs if it's magic items).  That is a character who spent his resources wisely.  I've never had a problem with a player saying "I'd like to start the game with Mithral Fullplate, which I paid 1/3 price for because I crafted it myself" if he also has the necessary tools to craft the armor and the necessary skills.

JaronK

And, honestly, "I make all my gear myself" is cooler than "I buy my gear at walmart... myself."

[snakeman830]

Considering the Athach has not a specified range, and the only area in core where thrown rocks range is described is on the giant's section, it's a logic conclusion. Speaking giant is just another thread strenghtening the connection.

Didn't I just say something on the matter?

Plus, there's the whole deal of Rocks being improvised thrown weapons and thus having a range incrament of 10ft unless noted otherwise.  Since the Athach has no special attack or quality letting it throw rocks with any better ability than anyone else, it will have the same range incrament for a max range of 50ft (the statblock even includes the -4 penalty for improvised weapons as the Athach's ranged attack bonus is +11.  -2 for Multiweapon Fighting and -4 for improvised gives the final listed result of +5 attack bonus).  The Athach's max rock range is shorter than one crossbow range incrament.

Seriously, it's like the designers actually intended for the Athach to not have any special ability with them or something...

[ImperatorK]

So if he spends resources you count that, but if he gains them you don't?  What silly logic is this?

Please, don't turn my words upside down with such silly assumptions. I have a big respect for you, but I'm begining to understand why some of the posters here don't like you.

And, honestly, "I make all my gear myself" is cooler than "I buy my gear at walmart... myself."

But you CAN craft it yourself, it just shouldn't give you any benefits, OUTSIDE OF THE ACTUAL GAME. AND you can still use your crafting skills and feats, IN THE ACTUAL GAME. They don't all of a sudden lose their usefulness when you can't practicaly double or triple your WBL.
If you allow crafting to strech out WBL then why don't the caster use some Planar Binding cheese or Salt Cows cheese to get unlimited wealth before the game even starts, huh?

Okay, okay. Lets stop this. I'm not on a crusade. Your interpretation is basicly the correct one (or more popular one, because hey, it's reasonable to get benefits from feats and skills BEFORE the game, when they still give benefits DURING the game and untill the end of the game, right?). But my interpretation is correct as well. Lets leave it at this.
And sorry for derailing the thread.

[spacemonkey555]

So if he spends resources you count that, but if he gains them you don't?  What silly logic is this?

Please, don't turn my words upside down with such silly assumptions. I have a big respect for you, but I'm begining to understand why some of the posters here don't like you.

And, honestly, "I make all my gear myself" is cooler than "I buy my gear at walmart... myself."

But you CAN craft it yourself, it just shouldn't give you any benefits, OUTSIDE OF THE ACTUAL GAME. AND you can still use your crafting skills and feats, IN THE ACTUAL GAME. They don't all of a sudden lose their usefulness when you can't practicaly double or triple your WBL.
If you allow crafting to strech out WBL then why don't the caster use some Planar Binding cheese or Salt Cows cheese to get unlimited wealth before the game even starts, huh?

Okay, okay. Lets stop this. I'm not on a crusade. Your interpretation is basicly the correct one (or more popular one, because hey, it's reasonable to get benefits from feats and skills BEFORE the game, when they still give benefits DURING the game and untill the end of the game, right?). But my interpretation is correct as well. Lets leave it at this.
And sorry for derailing the thread.

By the rule you read, you're 100% correct, the wbl rule is written as total current value of wealth. The problem is there's an additional rule on page 199 of the dmg you need to read that explicitly allows what they're doing when rolling high level casters with crafting feats.

[Halinn]

Also, not having any pre-game crafted stuff is not fun for an artificer.

[Mixster]

Okay, okay. Lets stop this. I'm not on a crusade. Your interpretation is basicly the correct one (or more popular one, because hey, it's reasonable to get benefits from feats and skills BEFORE the game, when they still give benefits DURING the game and untill the end of the game, right?). But my interpretation is correct as well. Lets leave it at this.
And sorry for derailing the thread.

Sure, No bad feelings and all that?

Considering the Athach has not a specified range, and the only area in core where thrown rocks range is described is on the giant's section, it's a logic conclusion. Speaking giant is just another thread strenghtening the connection.

Didn't I just say something on the matter?

Plus, there's the whole deal of Rocks being improvised thrown weapons and thus having a range incrament of 10ft unless noted otherwise.  Since the Athach has no special attack or quality letting it throw rocks with any better ability than anyone else, it will have the same range incrament for a max range of 50ft (the statblock even includes the -4 penalty for improvised weapons as the Athach's ranged attack bonus is +11.  -2 for Multiweapon Fighting and -4 for improvised gives the final listed result of +5 attack bonus).  The Athach's max rock range is shorter than one crossbow range incrament.

Seriously, it's like the designers actually intended for the Athach to not have any special ability with them or something...

Logic isn't really a term thrown around here that means too much. But I'm pretty sure Snakeman is right. That is also what is indicated by the rules.

[JaronK]

Plus, there's the whole deal of Rocks being improvised thrown weapons and thus having a range incrament of 10ft unless noted otherwise.  Since the Athach has no special attack or quality letting it throw rocks with any better ability than anyone else, it will have the same range incrament for a max range of 50ft (the statblock even includes the -4 penalty for improvised weapons as the Athach's ranged attack bonus is +11.  -2 for Multiweapon Fighting and -4 for improvised gives the final listed result of +5 attack bonus).  The Athach's max rock range is shorter than one crossbow range incrament.

Okay, the fact that the improvised penalty is built in seals it.  I had thought they might get the giant rock throwing, but obviously they don't... so yeah, the fly above and shoot plan works great on them.

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

The problem is there's an additional rule on page 199 of the dmg you need to read that explicitly allows what they're doing when rolling high level casters with crafting feats.

Yes, that is right and that should be enough of an argument for someone who is against crafting before the game. Not for me. Please read the rest. It states that player don't even have that big of a freedom in chosing their equipment in the first place, at least that's how I understand it (although a DM who would enforce that would indeed be a dick). It doesn't state that you get the items cheaper. It's just a way to get what you want, instead more or less random gear. But whatever, I said that I stop this.

BTW! Did you guys see this? "Charged Magic Items". It allows to buy partialy charged wands?! Giacomo was right?

[Halinn]

The problem is there's an additional rule on page 199 of the dmg you need to read that explicitly allows what they're doing when rolling high level casters with crafting feats.

Yes, that is right and that should be enough of an argument for someone who is against crafting before the game. Not for me. Please read the rest. It states that player don't even have that big of a freedom in chosing their equipment in the first place, at least that's how I understand it (although a DM who would enforce that would indeed be a dick). It doesn't state that you get the items cheaper. It's just a way to get what you want, instead more or less random gear. But whatever, I said that I stop this.

BTW! Did you guys see this? "Charged Magic Items". It allows to buy partialy charged wands?! Giacomo was right?

There is a bit that says the DM may restrict how the gold is spent (specifically, how much one item may be worth, relative to WBL), but it says that PC spellcasters can use any of the XP and GP they start with to create magic items (with the appropriate feats), with nothing saying that it is an option for the DM to allow it. Thus, crafting with starting gold is explicitly RAW, and they give the option for DMs to houserule that starting items may be limited in cost.

Technically, under "Charged Magic Items", it says that characters may select a (singular) partially charged item.