Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[SorO_Lost]

@Butterfly sword, well if used two-handed, that's actually decent. According to Oriental Adventures page 18, you can also do it with a Nun-Chaku, which works as a heavy pick. Also note those Mouth-Darts in OA that can give you 3 attacks with them per attack you make, soak them in black lotus extract and watch things without DR cry.

Everything can be light or two-handed. Butterfly Sword as a medium weapon is a one hander, as a large it is a two hander with an inherent Power Attack like feature giving -2 to attack rolls but a +50% bonus to str damage (plus it uses a bigger die). 

Isn't Ethereal Reaver in the MiC? Where it is basically a +3 enhancement that is ghost touch + see invisibility?

Not in specific weapons. Like area 51, it jumps from Dwarf Crusher to Explosive Sling so there are ETs in there at all. Really though, it's on page 106 in the Complete Psionic and it does give See Invisible, but if you read on it notes the blade exists in both planes and even goes out of it's way to address attacking creatures on the Material plane while your on the Ethereal plane works just fine.

Also, fyi; The ability costs 31,688gp. [40,000 - (8,000 +2 enhance) - (300 mwk) - (15 longsword)]

@Solo, I support your new direction.

Actually I do too, I'm sad to say this, but over those last 12 pages my regard of the monk did change a good bit. I especially like that invisible fist ACF.[/quote]everything is better when Ethereal. Also Life Drinker (named weapon, dmg/srd) too. The armor wearing Necropoliton ACFed Monk could use it, free 2 negative levels per hit.

Have a build concept.

Necropoliton Fire Elf Monk (undead, treated as an outsider [native] for spells)  (so suck it command undead)
Abilities: Str 22 (+4 level), Dex 15 (+1 level, +2 racial, 4 enhance), Con -- (base 8), Int 14 (+2 racial), Wis 8, Cha 8. (PB 26, I hate odd points.)
HP: 175 = 20d12 (135.5) + Desecrate (40) ? +40 (corpsecrafter)
ACFs: Simple Monk Variant^UA, Holy Strike^CC, Invisible Fist^EoE, Passive Way^UA, Broken One^CoV, Dark Moon Disciple, Invisible Fist^EoE.
Feats: Battle Jump^1st,, Skill Focus (Bluff)^F, Skill Prodigy^F, Combat Expertise^B, Improved Trip^B, Knock-Down^3rd, Power Attack^6th, Track^B, Improved Bull Rush^9th, Shock Trooper^12th, Snap Kick^15th, Mantis Leap^18th.
Skills: Balance 5, Diplomacy 23, Move Silently 23, Survival 7, Tumble 11, UMD 10, UPD 10. (140 points, 89 spent)
Notable Equipment: +5 Valorous Blurstrike Lifedrinker Necklace of Natural Weapons (around 150k), +1 Ethereal Reaving Butterfly Sword (<40k), a Tool, Masterwork tools for each skill with a rank (50gp per, hell buy one for all skills), four Wands of Guidance of the Avatar (10 charges each, 3,600), Armor with 0 ACP (idk), Enchanted Mitheral Buckler (idk), stockpile of useful scrolls (200k), Rings of Force Armor (30k), Stone Spikes (4k), a bow of some sort.  (around 500k spent, plenty to pick up the rest of prime 6, a grafted spiked chain for lolz, and w/e else)

The Monk is capable of dealing [<Unarmed Damage> + (Str Mod * 2) + 15 (pa) * 3(battle+valor) ) * 2(base+snapkick)] or around 240+ damage by falling onto an opponent, or one less overall damage multiplier on a normal charge. Each successful hit gives a free Trip attempt to which (using battle jump) the build has a 12+(str) to the check. On a successful Trip, one additional attack and Snap Kick's attack are given. Additional, all attacks deal 2 negative levels, +1d4 piercing, +1d4 force, +1d6 good (vs evil foes), and +1d6 cold. To-Hit bonus is +25 (+27 and they lose dex to ac if lack true seeing)  without factoring further items. idk what damage quote is, but with further hit bonuses it can reliably kill an Pit Fiend, and with a successful (currently +15 vs +12) Trip a Balor, in a single charge without counting item augmentation (well, did use valorous, but I even skipped adding the +5 enhancement).

The versatility of the build strikes the useful range. Su based total concealment is better than hide so no spot check can ever overcome it, high Move Silently (half the time you don't even make noise), flight, the ability to walk though walls, and being able to track a humanoid over firm ground two days ago makes this Monk an exceptional scout. Additionally, 'attacking' traps suffer a 50% miss chance before AC is checked, area traps deals 1/5 damage before reflex is checked, and poison traps are ignored. And finally, it can talk its way out of fights if need be.

The Monk can readily use several spells to handle adventuring problems. By UMDing one of it's four Wands of Guidance of the Avatar it has a +32 bonus to meet DC 37 9th level scrolls (75% success rate, could have more but meh). Being locked out of all four wands is a nill case. If you are casting that many spells from items per day, stab your self to death and reroll a psionic character and google PP recovery. ~Other thoughts on skills, crafting really doesn't ignore WBL so that is skipped, same for owning a pet and hiring people to train/craft only costs like 21sp so forget wasting valuable skill points. Thinking Autohypnosiss or w/e would be useful, Knowledge skills let you validate metagaming (but my character does know that, see? *rolls*), and Intimidate is a prime skill and really easy to get high enough to never fail, just too lazy to figure those out.

It almost looks like a good non-PrC build. Sadly, there still isn't a real reason to continue past level 12 with this thing. >.>
***

[Sobolev]

I was attempting to do something similar, but was trying to work in Kalashatar so I could get Obtain Psicrystal as a bonus feat so I could have mindsight to help my scouting. Was also going to use the slow fall trade for wall walk to get above people for battle jump.

[SorO_Lost]

I was attempting to do something similar, but was trying to work in Kalashatar so I could get Obtain Psicrystal as a bonus feat so I could have mindsight to help my scouting. Was also going to use the slow fall trade for wall walk to get above people for battle jump.

I forgot about that sub.

I also forgot about needing 16 wisdom to keep Blink running in a continuous loop.
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8 is PB 24.

Edit: Further at level 17 the Monk took a 400 year break, or w/e, becoming Venerable thus gaining +3 to all his mental scores. That's 3 extra still points, +1 to social skills, +1 will saves, and of course 3 points of Wisdom that don't need to be paid for. A Cheesy point would be to say after hitting level 17 and aging, the Monk retrains every single level. Why? For the skill point recalculation of having an 18 in intelligence at every single level.

[X-Codes]

Here's a non-MAD monk build. Yes, I am going to keep linking it until you actually address the argument. It isn't MAD; it uses 22 PB, just the same as you. It uses precisely the same array as you do. It uses the Monk chassis to gain access to several of the same skills you claim make the Expert more effective, enough that a single feat can close the gap. It doesn't use all of a Monk's class features, because attempting to do so would be counterproductive. So, hooray, an optimization decision has been made to ignore what would otherwise be dead weight. It still uses more class features (Evasion) than the Expert, which necessarily has none.

Evasion can be bought, and your monk "build" is a poor attempt at trying to be an expert using a hazy, at best, rules interpretation of barely legal material to begin with.  If you want to use Iaijutsu Focus, you simply have to forego your unarmed strikes.

In the end, the Monk spends a feat to get the worthwhile stuff from the Expert, and the Expert spends a little GP to get the worthwhile stuff from the Monk.  Feats > GP, so the Expert wins.

[dark_samuari]

Right now I'm really enjoy this monk build I put together. Very flavorful, very fun.

I'll have it ready for you guys to tear apart soon enough.

But lets just say I got inspired by a certain pop culture dude:

[veekie]

Notice the bit where one of the 'advantages' of a commoner, including the joke flaw, is the cash value of his corpse?

Let's see... A flesh golem requires at least six corpses and 10,500 gp to create, 500 of which go toward vaguely magic stuff. That leaves 10k split up among six corpses, so a good Commoner corpse would be worth ~1,666.67 gp.
Then when you're dead, your ghost accepts the payment, and you dump those proceedings into Telekinesis-able objects.

Where were the slave pricing rules again? It'd be interesting to see if the corpse is worth more than the actual commoner.

The Neogi in Lords of Madness page 101 use these guidelines for buying slaves:
Base Price = (CR(minimum 1))²*100
An unskilled dwarf, for example, with CR 1/2, costs 100 gp
(CR 1/2 rounds up to 1; 1 squared = 1; 1 times 100 gp = 100 gp).
A troll slave, on the other hand, costs 2,500 gp (CR 5 squared
= 25, times 100 gp = 2,500 gp).
Unusual or marketable qualities in a slave, such as great
strength, great beauty, valuable skill, or exotic origin, can
multiply the price by two, three, or four. A skilled miner dwarf
might bring 200 gp if sold at a mine. If that same dwarf were
exceptionally strong, he could cost 400 gp. If that dwarf was an
8th-level rogue and the buyer was the head of a thieves’ guild,
the slave could cost between 12,800 and 25,600 gp. The DM
has considerable leeway when setting these prices, of course.
When dealing with high-level characters, there’s always a pos-
sibility that the neogi don’t know how valuable or how skilled
a particular captive is, leading them to undervalue the slave.
So I guess a level 1 commoner would cost 100 gold, which means the Neogi could make a great profit by selling their slaves to necromancers.

So they ARE more valuable dead than alive!

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Evasion can be bought, and your monk "build" is a poor attempt at trying to be an expert using a hazy, at best, rules interpretation of barely legal material to begin with.  If you want to use Iaijutsu Focus, you simply have to forego your unarmed strikes.

I don't think it's hazy at all that a martial artist can use iaijutsu focus on people as well as brick walls.

[Solo]

Well, if the person would stand still for a few minutes in a calm environment...

[dark_samuari]

Alright, here is my guy. I'll be the first to say he isn't an absolutely perfect build but I feel he would be an enjoyable one to play & does bring some strengths to an adventuring party.




The Shade: Male Ghostwise Halfling Monk 7; CR 7; Medium Humanoid (Halfling); HD 5d6+2/2d8+2; hp 45; Init +3; Spd 40 ft.; AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 11; Base Atk +5; Grp +1; Atk +9 melee (1d6+0/x2; unarmed strike) or +9 melee (1d3+0/x2; 10ft.; sai) or +10 ranged (1/x2; 10ft.; shurkin); SA Skirmish (+1d6 & +1 AC); SQ Speak Without Sound (20ft. telepathy towards one person), Darkvision (60ft.), Invisible Fist (1/4 rounds invisibility), Resistant Body (Fire Resistance 5), Shadow Blend and Blur of Motion; AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7; Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Balance +5 (0 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy), Bluff +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Climb +4 (2 ranks +0 str +2 racial), Craft (Poison) +8 (7 ranks +1 int), Disguise +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Hide +13 (10 ranks +3 dex +4 size bonus), Intimidate +11 (9 ranks +0 cha +2 apprentice bonus), Jump +13 (5 ranks +0 str +2 synergy +2 racial +4 speed), Knowledge (Local) +12 (10 ranks +1 int +1 specialized), Move Silently +14 (9 ranks +3 dex +2 racial), Profession (Merchant) +4 (2 ranks +2 wis), Read/Write/Speak (Common, Halfling and Sylvan) and Tumble +15 (10 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy); Collector of Stories; Apprentice (Soldier), Combat Reflexes, Favored in House, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Poisons and Mindsight.
Traits & Flaws: Specialized (Knowledge: Local); Inattentive & Unreactive
Variants: Invisible Eye (Unearthed Arcana), Hin Disciple (Champions of Valor), Dark Moon (Champions of Valor), Halfling Substitution Levels (Races of the Wild), Invisible Fist (Exemplar’s of Evil), and Resistant Body (Planar Handbook).

The Shade is a complex figure wrapped up in both intrigue and mystery almost as think as the shadows he hides within. He serves as a mobile striker who through stealth and mystical abilities gains advantages during the moon's horizon. Utilizing most of the inherent strengths that come towards being a halfling monk (there aren't many) he emphasizes the power in his short, little stature. So perhaps a quick back-story is needed to establish how this build works from a story/flavor perspective.

The Shade, an ordinary merchant during day, becomes a demon of the night as he patrols the streets of his city attempting to rid it of crime and those who would perpetrate it. Born into mysticism The Shade welcomes his ability to communicate beyond words by delving deeper into the mystic arts of darkness, shadows and unorthodox martial arts techniques. Realizing, fairly soon in his training, that in any fair fight he would be broken by those taller & stronger than himself he set out to even the score. He would utilize their fears of the night against them, utilize the shadows and darkness to his advantage in bringing quick fury to their faces. Maintaining a quiet and proper merchant shop in the city The Shade compliments his honest career with a night time hobby of crafting poisons and procuring information regarding criminal behavior from his contacts.

So with a simple back-story set up The Shade is established to not only be able to function in a narrative sense but also be dropped into practically any campaign/adventure. In fact you might be questioning the realities of his back story with such low ranks in Bluff & Disguise, and I would simply answer that The Shade is harkening back to the pulp era character who was terrible at hiding their identity (if this still doesn't work for you he buys a magic item...). But let us look at some of his talents & techniques within combat.

His initial combat suffers against anyone not a humanoid, this is a downfall of the build. But the character is designed for an urban environment and such is constructed with that in mind. With that said The Shade will begin any fight by eliminating any light source in the room as to bring his environment into darkness. Following that he will being his slow assault on any enemies who are not only facing total concealment against him but should he decide to utilize his Blur of Motion ability a high armor class with attacks still coming in. Relying beyond his own form The Shade uses poison to attack his foes from the inside out (The Shade is proficient in the production of poisons like Carrion Crawler Brain Juice, Nitharit, Lich Dust, Insanity Mist, Shadow Essence and Purple Worm Poison). Oh and lastly, he can pinpoint any individual who happens to be thinking within 20ft of him (as well as determine how intelligent they are) so there is that...

In fact a simple example of his standard environment and attack/damage might look something akin to this:

In a non-sunlight room within the city against humanoids
AC 22 (10 +1 size +3 dexterity +1 monk bonus +2 wisdom +4 total defense) [Total Concealment is also in effect so flip a coin...]    
Attack +12 (+5 BaB +1 size bonus +3 weapon finesse +3 knowledge devotion [he'll easily be hitting 26 by this level])
Damage +5 & purple worm poison (1d3[2 average] +0 strength +3 knowledge devotion with purple worm poison)        

So we end up with a guy who, honestly, can't hit for a whole lot of damage but if he lands his blow begins to inflict some nasty poison. In addition his defense is hurting too difficult (this is after all without any magic items factored in) so he can continue to dance with his foes until he lands something.

So with everything said, what do you all think?

[Tshern]

Does the Speak without sound ability really even work with Mindsight?

[Mixster]

After having read invisible fist, I think I'm totally on the monks side in the debate of Monk vs. Expert. The ability to be permanently blinking at level 9 is nothing to sneeze at, and not something the Expert can mimic easily.

However, I do still not see much reason to progress the class after level 9.

[Bauglir]

Evasion can be bought, and your monk "build" is a poor attempt at trying to be an expert using a hazy, at best, rules interpretation of barely legal material to begin with.  If you want to use Iaijutsu Focus, you simply have to forego your unarmed strikes.

In the end, the Monk spends a feat to get the worthwhile stuff from the Expert, and the Expert spends a little GP to get the worthwhile stuff from the Monk.  Feats > GP, so the Expert wins.

Yes, you're right, I made that post before the argument that convinced me to drop the unarmed strike damage. It's not significant, anyway. The point is that Jaron insists that using skills as a Monk necessitates MAD, because he expects a Monk to invest in every ability score that could potentially be useful. This means that he has to give up many of his class features, but the bar is not high when your opponent has 0. Monks do get Improved Evasion, which can't be bought, but you will note that Jaron picked a low-level build, presumably because we've already established that a Monk doesn't need significant trickery to meet the minimum DCs necessary to match an Expert's abilities once they're both at higher levels. It's a minor bonus, but it exists.

Further, the Expert still isn't matching the better saves (and with stats like that, it's either spamming UMD to boost its saves or it's failing a lot of Fort and Ref saves). And the Monk in question is essentially as effective as the Expert, with the exception of Elementals, which are immune both to precision damage and to poison, but not to Mind-affecting Effects. Further, if we're allowing characters to rely on skills as RAW, both can just rely on Diplomacy and win the game. Any effort beyond that is unnecessary.

Finally, besides the fact that I'm not arguing that the Monk is significantly better than the Expert (I think that, as a class, it is if you allow multiclassing and proper gear optimization, but you need both since Monk is 6 levels long in this case), I'm also trying to make clear that there's a double standard going on about what is a "Class X Fallacy". A lot of posts in this thread are arbitrarily denying the Monk anything but its class features, because that would be using something that isn't part of the class, but then you have an Expert relying on poisons, flying mounts with blindsense, the undead type, and spellcasting emulation.

Again, a Monk is not just a beatstick. It was given some additional skill capacity beyond "any character in the game", and while being schizophrenically designed is one reason it's a terrible class, it is still a hell of a double standard to refuse to allow it to make use of that ability.

[snakeman830]

What is an Expert's cole class ability?  Choosing its class skills.  Thus, doing what the Expert builds have been doing (you know, USING THEIR CHOSEN CLASS SKILLS!!!!!) is indeed using the Expert class abilities.

[Lycanthromancer]

Crying foul on the Class X Fallacy is perfectly legit in this case, since the expert is using things to buff his skills (which is totally what he DOES), while a lot of the people doing things with monk are spending money to do things that monks don't do.

That's what the Class X Fallacy IS.

[Shiki]

Does the Speak without sound ability really even work with Mindsight?

I'd say no, but with a feat made for them here, it qualifies. Feat intensive for only 20ft mindsight...

Edit: Although, I could see it being ruled so you wouldn't need Improved Speak Without Sound, as it isn't specified what form of telepathy is needed to qualify for Mindsight, and Speak Without Sound is obviously a "limited form of telepathy", but still telepathy. Same argument w/ psicrystals and Telepathic Speech here, I guess. Or the Malachite Embedded Gem of the Crystal Master.. etc.

[Bauglir]

What is an Expert's cole class ability?  Choosing its class skills.  Thus, doing what the Expert builds have been doing (you know, USING THEIR CHOSEN CLASS SKILLS!!!!!) is indeed using the Expert class abilities.

So why isn't it legit for a Monk to use its own class skills? Remember, you can't actually use Skill Prodigy to do this with just any class. It's due to the fact that so many of the chosen skills for an Expert are already class skills AND due to the fact that Monks get 4 + Int, not 2. You're arbitrarily relaxing the restrictions on the Expert because you don't see anything else for it to do. Why isn't this a double standard?

Crying foul on the Class X Fallacy is perfectly legit in this case, since the expert is using things to buff his skills (which is totally what he DOES), while a lot of the people doing things with monk are spending money to do things that monks don't do.

That's what the Class X Fallacy IS.

Because you're arbitrarily defining what a Monk "does" to be something stupid, while you're doing no such thing for the Expert. You seem to be saying a Monk does nothing with skills, ever. Not all Monks dump all their ranks into Profession (Dragon Lunch), Craft (Delicious Marinade), Perform (Dinner Chime Imitation), and Swim.

EDIT: I think I've been getting overly aggressive about this, in retrospect. I apologize, particularly to Jaron, for being an ass. I'm not retracting my accusation of a double standard, I just think my last post was made without realizing how exasperated I've been getting about it. Sorry for being a dick.

[JaronK]

What is an Expert's cole class ability?  Choosing its class skills.  Thus, doing what the Expert builds have been doing (you know, USING THEIR CHOSEN CLASS SKILLS!!!!!) is indeed using the Expert class abilities.

So why isn't it legit for a Monk to use its own class skills?

It is legit for a Monk to do that, obviously.  And any Monk build ought to make good use of his class skills.  The objection wasn't the Monk using his class skills... it was him trying to fake being an expert by increasing MAD (pumping his Int) so he could take Skill Prodigy to add new class skills, thus screwing himself (see Giacomo's build for an obvious example of a Monk made weaker by doing this).

Remember, you can't actually use Skill Prodigy to do this with just any class. It's due to the fact that so many of the chosen skills for an Expert are already class skills AND due to the fact that Monks get 4 + Int, not 2. You're arbitrarily relaxing the restrictions on the Expert because you don't see anything else for it to do. Why isn't this a double standard?

He only added two skills, because Monks need to dump Int and it hurt a TON just to add Int 14.  By comparison, any class with less MAD is better at it... Fighters often want Int 13 for Combat Expertise (into Improved Trip) anyway, have less MAD, and the thug variant gets 4+Int skills, so a Thug Fighter is better at this than a Monk.  Any actual Int based class is far better at it (such as Artificers, Beguilers, Swashbucklers, Warblades, and so on) and any skill monkey is more likely to have those as class skills anyway.  Heck, even Barbarians are probably better off doing this simply because they can happily have only Str and Con, so dumping their other stats to have a higher Int is more reasonable.

The fact is, a 4+Int class that already needs Str, Con, Dex, and Wis is one of the worst classes to be doing this.  The only thing worse would be a 2+Int class with such severe MAD (such as a Paladin). 

Because you're arbitrarily defining what a Monk "does" to be something stupid, while you're doing no such thing for the Expert. You seem to be saying a Monk does nothing with skills, ever. Not all Monks dump all their ranks into Profession (Dragon Lunch), Craft (Delicious Marinade), Perform (Dinner Chime Imitation), and Swim.

It's not arbitrary.  What a Monk "does" is the stuff in his class entry.  Everything else is not what a Monk does... it's what a feat does, or what an item does, or what a race does.  What an Expert does is have 10 class skills of his choice, get a good will save, 3/4 BAB, and have 6+Int skills.  To show how an Expert is useful, you have to use those things to make a build good, otherwise you're not proving anything about the class.

What a Monk does is have Wis to AC, a dependency on Con and Wis and Dex and Str, gain a few bonus feats, have all good saves, etc.  To show how a Monk is useful, you have to use those things to make a build good, otherwise you're not proving anything about the class.  There's no double standard here.  And there's nothing wrong with using any resources at your disposal... but if those resources have little or nothing to do with the Monk class (such as using feats that are all about Int and don't synergize well with Monk abilities) then you're not proving anything about the Monk class.  And when you're not talking about the Monk class, just things you happen to use in a build that also happens to be a Monk, and then claiming those things prove Monks are strong, that's the Class X Fallacy, because it could apply to almost any class.

EDIT: I think I've been getting overly aggressive about this, in retrospect. I apologize, particularly to Jaron, for being an ass. I'm not retracting my accusation of a double standard, I just think my last post was made without realizing how exasperated I've been getting about it. Sorry for being a dick.

Accepted.

JaronK

[dark_samuari]

So... Does my build work or ?...

[Saxony]

We care about Monks being Monks and beating Experts, why?

I do not give half a shit about Monks doing Monkish things and beating Experts at the same time.

If a single classed Monk beats a single classed Expert, that's all we care about. Or, at least, all I care about. I honestly don't care if a Monk out-Experts the Expert and forgets everything those old ascetics in the temple taught him as an orphan boy to do it. The Monk still won. Plus, the d8 HD, all good saves, and spell resistance have a habit of sticking around.

Now let's say an Expert has a feat and 4 points of point buy on a Monk (who is then the exact same as the Monk). That's basically the same as a shitty race expert vs. a Human Expert. The Monk doesn't need to use any of its abilities. Stating they are MAD is ridiculous. They don't need to use ability scores to have all good saves, one size better HD, spell resistance, evasion/improved evasion, etc. And they don't need to make themselves MAD to use their shit class features, anyway. d8 vs. d6 is basically +2 Con, anyway.

Oh, and guess what? The Monk actually HAS class features to get MAD to use. If the Monk has the same skill power as the Expert and even one other class feature, they have won. They only need one class feature and skills to beat Experts. That's Intelligence and another ability score, hardly MAD. Or, you know, NOTHING to fuel their ability score dependent class features.

The real question is "Are having more 4 points of point buy and an extra feat worth the Monk's class features?" The answer is... it's even. However, the Expert can buy some of the good monk class features for ~35k (Ring of Feather Falling, Monk's Belt, and Ring of Evasion). Is a feat and 4 points of point buy worth more than 35k? Yep.

I say Experts still win even if Monks can be "Non-monkish" and still win. But narrowly. They are still both shit classes.

Think of the Monk as an Expert alternative class feature. More defensive class features at the cost of roughly -4 to any ability score of their choosing and the 1st level feat.

[Mixster]

Think of the Monk as an Expert alternative class feature. More defensive class features at the cost of roughly -4 to any ability score of their choosing and the 1st level feat.

Not really any ability score, more like that penalty to int.

Think instead of monks as an ACF for Expert, that costs 10 points in a point buy (the difference between 14, what most experts like and 18int), and a feat to take. But grants +1 HP/level, two improved saves and the evasions. I don't really think it's worth it to pay around a third of your point buy and a feat to get that. Since those things can be added with items.

Now invisible fist on the other hand.