Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[skydragonknight]

MIC P138 Spellsight Spectacles: "Spellsight Spectacles grant you a +5 competence bonus on Spellcraft checks made to decipher scrolls and Use Magic Device checks made to use scrolls."

Doesn't help with wands, but those aren't the hard checks to make.

[Bauglir]

TL:DR Experts can do loads of stuff that the monk can't do without spending half his feats, the expert doesn't want to spend his feats doing what the monk can do, since those things are silly.

I am a monk. 

I spend one feat to get UMD, iaijutsu focus, and lucid dreaming as class skills.  I now have a skill list just as combat viable useful as the expert's.

Also, if your other class features effectively do nothing, that means you spent a feat to turn in to an Expert.  Sounds pretty terrible.  Sounds like a monk.

Sounds like an Expert with all good saves and a few more hit points to me.

And did getting items that provide a competence bonus to skills just drop off the face of the earth while I wasn't paying attention, or is there an actual reason people keep talking about where that could come from? That said, it is nice to have an actual example pointed out.

Also, pointing out that the Expert is better because it doesn't have MAD is like pointing out that the Warmage makes a great prestige class base because it's got nothing to lose. I mean, yeah, I guess you have something resembling an argument, but you do realize that's not actually a point in the class' favor, right? At least, this is the case when we're building a "skill monkey" Monk, the point of which is just to mimic the Expert with a better chassis and the Monk's abilities as a meaningless bit of icing. Because I, at least, am not arguing that a Monk doing what Monks are thematically supposed to do is better than skill optimization, any more than I want to argue that Wizards doing what they're thematically "supposed" to do (blasting) is better than actually using that Int score and preparing good spells.

[Sobolev]

TL:DR Experts can do loads of stuff that the monk can't do without spending half his feats, the expert doesn't want to spend his feats doing what the monk can do, since those things are silly.

I am a monk. 

I spend one feat to get UMD, iaijutsu focus, and lucid dreaming as class skills.  I now have a skill list just as combat viable useful as the expert's.

Also, if your other class features effectively do nothing, that means you spent a feat to turn in to an Expert.  Sounds pretty terrible.  Sounds like a monk.

Sounds like an Expert with all good saves and a few more hit points to me.

And did getting items that provide a competence bonus to skills just drop off the face of the earth while I wasn't paying attention, or is there an actual reason people keep talking about where that could come from? That said, it is nice to have an actual example pointed out.

Also, pointing out that the Expert is better because it doesn't have MAD is like pointing out that the Warmage makes a great prestige class base because it's got nothing to lose. I mean, yeah, I guess you have something resembling an argument, but you do realize that's not actually a point in the class' favor, right? At least, this is the case when we're building a "skill monkey" Monk, the point of which is just to mimic the Expert with a better chassis and the Monk's abilities as a meaningless bit of icing. Because I, at least, am not arguing that a Monk doing what Monks are thematically supposed to do is better than skill optimization, any more than I want to argue that Wizards doing what they're thematically "supposed" to do (blasting) is better than actually using that Int score and preparing good spells.

Then I don't see the problem.  Skill optimization is better than monk class features.  Experts are better at skill optimization.

On to your other point about competence items.  Most people on these boards assume you can have any you want, but not all of them exist.  MWK items are subject to DM approval since they need to determine what the applicable skill is.  Both of these could then be disallowed rather commonly in games that aren't just an exercise in nonsense that we can make up using every book ever printed.

[Bauglir]

Monk class features aren't as good as skill optimization, but Monks are close enough to as good as Experts that their chassis makes up for it and their class features are gravy. That's the argument, because just like playing a Blaster Wizard, playing a Monk who uses Flurry of Blows and tries to grapple casters is Doing It Wrong if you're approaching your build with a heavy focus on optimization, unless you plan on using resources beyond what the class itself allows (which, I think, allows a character with Monk levels to get into Tier 4, with massive unarmed damage), such as Prestige Classes.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

TL:DR Experts can do loads of stuff that the monk can't do without spending half his feats, the expert doesn't want to spend his feats doing what the monk can do, since those things are silly.

I am a monk. 

I spend one feat to get UMD, iaijutsu focus, and lucid dreaming as class skills.  I now have a skill list just as combat viable useful as the expert's.

Also, if your other class features effectively do nothing, that means you spent a feat to turn in to an Expert.  Sounds pretty terrible.  Sounds like a monk.

The problem with the expert is that their only real class feature can be replicated with a single feat.

A skillmonkey with evasion, good saves, and super speed is better than just a skillmonkey.  You can't pick up evasion, good saves, and super speed with just one feat.

[X-Codes]

MIC P138 Spellsight Spectacles: "Spellsight Spectacles grant you a +5 competence bonus on Spellcraft checks made to decipher scrolls and Use Magic Device checks made to use scrolls."

Doesn't help with wands, but those aren't the hard checks to make.

Never knew there was an item that actually gave a bonus to UMD other than a custom item.  Good find.

[Sir Giacomo]

Quite amusing this thread, really.

Would anyone try to send a level 10 expert through the same game test? Since clearly the expert is the challenger, it should prove its worth first.

- Giacomo

[Mixster]

Oh my god, have we been asking about where they got their +5 competence bonus to UMD, when it was a scroll only bonus they claimed could be used on wands?

TL:DR Experts can do loads of stuff that the monk can't do without spending half his feats, the expert doesn't want to spend his feats doing what the monk can do, since those things are silly.

I am a monk. 

I spend one feat to get UMD, iaijutsu focus, and lucid dreaming as class skills.  I now have a skill list just as combat viable useful as the expert's.

Also, if your other class features effectively do nothing, that means you spent a feat to turn in to an Expert.  Sounds pretty terrible.  Sounds like a monk.

The problem with the expert is that their only real class feature can be replicated with a single feat.

A skillmonkey with evasion, good saves, and super speed is better than just a skillmonkey.  You can't pick up evasion, good saves, and super speed with just one feat.

What was the feat you took to get those three as class skills again?

Quite amusing this thread, really.

Would anyone try to send a level 10 expert through the same game test? Since clearly the expert is the challenger, it should prove its worth first.

- Giacomo

Sure but I'm not doing a complete build until you actually do something, this is a stub that I'll finish if needed.
Expert build stub

25 point buy
Stoutheart Halfling
Str 11 (-2 racial) = 9
Dex 12 (+2 racial) (+2 levels) = 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14
Has trained a Desmodu Hunting bat for riding.
Feats (5): Planar Touchstone (kobold domain), Rapid Shot,
Skills (104 or 8 skills at max):

Iaijutsu Focus: +24 = 13 ranks + 2 cha + 3 circlet of persuasion + 2 MWK Tool + 4 Focus Katana in sheath (doesn't need proficiency for getting the bonus).
UMD: +18=13 ranks + 2 cha + 3 Circlet.
Handle Animal: +20 = 13 Ranks +2Cha +3 Circlet +2 Masterwork Tool ; Trains his own flying mount
Ride: +18 = 13 ranks +3 dex + 2 MWK tool Rides that flying mount
Search: +17 = 13 ranks + 2 int + 2 mwk tool
Hide: 18 = 13 ranks + 3 dex + 2 mwk tool
Move Silently: 18 = 13 ranks + 3 dex + 2 mwk tool
Disable Device: 17 = 13 ranks + 2 int + 2 mwk tool

Gear (45000):

Gnomish Quickrazor to draw and sheathe as a free action, doesn't require profiency, used off-hand to enable Iaijutsu on any flatfooted target (45g).
Focus Katana 1000g
Masterwork tools for his 8favored skills 400
Circlet of Persuasion 4500
Wand of Greater Invisibility 21000
Gauntlets of endless javelins 7000
Wand of Magic Missile 750
Also carries a Heavy Pick for the occascional Coup de Grace.
Assorted low level wands and scrolls he could need.

A Level 10 Same Game Test

    * A hallway filled with magical runes. Sure Win - Trap finding saves you from this kind of jazz.
    * A Fire Giant. Sure Win - Greater Invisibility (from a wand) with Javelins and Iaijutsu makes the giant cry.
    * A Young Blue Dragon. Sure win - The dragons poor flying speed makes it a poor aerial combatant. Getting to the right positions, you could easily evade all of it's attacks as it can't turn properly.
    * A Bebilith. Sure win - Doesn't fly, and it's web is not enough range to threaten the expert.
    * A Vrock. Sure win - Greater invis + Javelins.
    * A tag team of Mind Flayers. Sure Win - He can pretty much kill them in one surprise round
    * An Evil Necromancer. Sure loss - A properly prepared wizard can beat any expert.
    * 6 Trolls. Likely Win - It works around him not getting too close so they can scent him, but still within range of his javelins.
    * 12 Shadows. Likely Loss - Incorporeal means they can tag team him to easily unless he managed to get them somewhere with his flying mount could keep a proper distance to all walls, in which case he'd have to UMD some wands to damage them.
The sure wins that cost one wand charge worth 1050 should probably only be counted 1½ points instead of two.
Total SGT score: 2+1½+2+2+1½+2-2+1-1 = 9

[JaronK]

As a note, Experts don't have trapfinding, so they don't do so well with the traps.  However, bypassing encounters does count as a win, so an expert should be able to just stealth past most of the rest of the encounters.

Remember, T5 is the area where you're only good if you're playing to your strengths (and even then not so great).  An Expert's strength isn't combat, though he can do it with skills to a degree (IF, UMD). 

JaronK

[Mixster]

As a note, Experts don't have trapfinding, so they don't do so well with the traps.  However, bypassing encounters does count as a win, so an expert should be able to just stealth past most of the rest of the encounters.

Remember, T5 is the area where you're only good if you're playing to your strengths (and even then not so great).  An Expert's strength isn't combat, though he can do it with skills to a degree (IF, UMD).  

JaronK

I took Planar Touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment, kobold domain) to get trapfinding.

EDIT: I also don't think that level 10 same game test was designed around bypassing counting as a sure win, then most of that shit could be done with a level 2 spell since none of the things see invisibility.

[oslecamo]

    * A Vrock. Sure win - Greater invis + Javelins.

The vrock has a freaking +24 to Listen and Spot. That's more than enough to know where the expert is even with invisibility and silence up. Spores are then a sure-hit attack, and the Vrock can still attack normally with a 50% miss chance. Meanwhile Mirror Image is assured to be up since it's an at-will SLA, so it becomes a grinding battle as you try to overload the mirror images while the vrock wears you down with spores and the ocasional sucessful hit. If you give me your exact to-hit, full attack and damage per attack we can check out who has the edge.

[JaronK]

I took Planar Touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment, kobold domain) to get trapfinding.

Clever.

EDIT: I also don't think that level 10 same game test was designed around bypassing counting as a sure win, then most of that shit could be done with a level 2 spell since none of the things see invisibility.

Yeah, well, that's one of the problems with the same game test.  It's really not good if you start thinking outside the box and doing something other than just running up and hitting things.  I mean let's face it, a diplomancer could absolutely destroy those encounters (except the trap one), but that's hardly surprising.  A good stealther can just walk right past most of those creatures (the Vrock would take some work).  And lord knows the test isn't ready for someone to use a burrow speed to just go under a bunch of them.

JaronK

[Mixster]

    * A Vrock. Sure win - Greater invis + Javelins.

The vrock has a freaking +24 to Listen and Spot. That's more than enough to know where the expert is even with invisibility and silence up. Spores are then a sure-hit attack, and the Vrock can still attack normally with a 50% miss chance. Meanwhile Mirror Image is assured to be up since it's an at-will SLA, so it becomes a grinding battle as you try to overload the mirror images while the vrock wears you down with spores and the ocasional sucessful hit. If you give me your exact to-hit, full attack and damage per attack we can check out who has the edge.

Or I throw an Alchemist fire at it to get down the Mirror Image? Then continue my full attack with javelins?
The build isn't really complete, but I guess right now his to hit is just +13, but he should probably carry a wand of wraithstrike for occassions like these.

Also my hide checks are wrong, I forgot to add +4 for size. I have +22 to hide, I think I'll manage to get around the Vrocks spot checks. If I grab silence, (which is a good idea, thank you) then I can easily hide from the thing. If I remain stationary, I have +42 to hide, against it's measly +24 spot, how can it see me again? With silence, It can't hear me.

Full attack routine is: +11/+11/+6 Javelin (1d4+6d6). But can be modified to +13/+8 Javelin (1d4+6d6) if I really need to hit.

[Midnight_v]

 This is why I wanted a 3rd party to dm it.
1. Because people are going to bitch about how you adjucate the test. Not to say the test isn't good but in hindsight they'll always look and go "Well you didn't consider this!"
2. Because that bullshit Giacomo says about "You're the challenger" seems very much like someone digging for idea's. Not 100%, but if at any point the monk uses any of the stunts you've you'd it just going for stalemate on thier behalf.

The vrock has a freaking +24 to Listen and Spot. That's more than enough to know where the expert is even with invisibility and silence up 

No. No it really isn't. Silence Stops all sound, so there are not listen checks, Invisibility = A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. However, within 30 feet is enough to garner a surprise round. Which should solidly put the fight on the footing of the expert.
Also,

Meanwhile Mirror Image is assured to be up since it's an at-will SLA

vs

Keeping things on track...easiest way is to give sequential goals, rather than singular, or you know, talk to the players. Theres some verisimilitude issues. where if you CAN teleport everywhere, why aren't you?

Lazyness. Arrogance. Fanatism. Love. Friendship. Honor. Hotbloodness. Battle lust. Just like humans, monsters aren't cold logic machines that always carefully ponder every action they take

Emphasis mine... hypocrite much?

assuming that the vrock is sitting around watching Eryines gone wild or whatever and has stops every 12 mins of its life to put up his mirror image is... debatable. I remeber that being a position that Sunic Flame agreed with 100% so ymmv on that.
Though I do wonder what kind of javelins those are. I really like the additon of the planar touchstone. bravo.
No one get iujustu'd? How sad. But I understand.
...............
It going to be more sad however when we notice that the monk doesn't actually win the majority of his matches via stunning fist and beating things up. Thats really the type of thing that makes everyone poo on this class, it'd not particularly good a Martial Arts'ing things to death. . . so it gets relegated to trying to beat experts at thier own game. pfft... 

[oslecamo]

Or I throw an Alchemist fire at it to get down the Mirror Image? Then continue my full attack with javelins?

Mirror image specifically states that the images aren't destroyed by area effects, so splash from alchemist's fire won't do you any good.

Also my hide checks are wrong, I forgot to add +4 for size. I have +22 to hide, I think I'll manage to get around the Vrocks spot checks. If I grab silence, (which is a good idea, thank you) then I can easily hide from the thing. If I remain stationary, I have +42 to hide, against it's measly +24 spot, how can it see me again? With silence, It can't hear me.

Noticing an invisible oponent is a fixed DC 20 Spot check, point, as per the Spot skill.

Invisibility does give you a +20 bonus on hide checks. And I believe being immobile implies not attacking.

 Then you take a -20 penalty to hide for attacking while hiding, so it kinda cancels each other. But the Vrock only needs to be able to beat your Hide once.

Also if you get too near with silence, the Vrock will notice it can't hear anything, so it will know there's something fishy nearby which is why Silence isn't that hot of a stealth tool. Talking is a free action, and if you can't hear yourself anymore, you know you're inside the Silence area.

[Midnight_v]

Noticing an invisible oponent is a fixed DC 20 Spot check, point.

*Note: That occurs within 30 feet, naturally.
Aside from that  it leads to a surprise round. Even then...
Wait are we gonna need an invisibility refresher?
bah.
Silence only has a 20 feet radius.
So its not to be used the way you suggest. There's no "You suddenly hear an oppressive... NOTHING"
of if you do then the fight's already started. I think thats the point.
You can't make a listen check to determine an area of silence ahead, unless something really obvious and stupid happens, like Silencing over a marching band or some such.
I does obviate the need for move silently checks completely though.

[oslecamo]

Noticing an invisible oponent is a fixed DC 20 Spot check, point.

*Note: That occurs within 30 feet, naturally.

Where you're geting that distance from again?

Besides javelins have 30 feet range base, so if you're not quite close, you'll take quite a considerable penalty to those full attacks.

Which reminds me, Wraith Strike works on melee attacks only, so you cannot use it with Javelins.

[Midnight_v]

Where you're geting that distance from again?

From the Srd of Course.

  Invisibility
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is… DC
In combat or speaking 0
Moving at half speed Move Silently check result
Moving at full speed Move Silently check result -5
Running or charging Move Silently check result -20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.
 

Here's the relavant bits I'm referencing.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

So basically the deal is move within 35 feet and wait for it to move into range, full attack during the surprise round. Take a five foot step out if needed. But even then  Round 2: Initiative I imagine another full round attack, but for me I think one of my attack would be a tanglefoot bag but then this isn't about what I'd do anyway so meh. I'm just working with whats been presented.
Further in that post you suggest :

Spores are then a sure-hit attack, and the Vrock can still attack normally with a 50% miss chance

I suggest you might need to review that somewhat, so I'm just gonna show why I feel why you're so very wrong

  Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock.
 

Emphasis mine.
The expert will never be adjacent to the Vrock. So you clearly didn't know what you're talking about there.
Moreover, it will be flatfooted for all the attacks and so that means Vrock Ac=20 for the duration. Wraithstrike or no.
.......................
Now there are other tactics the vrock could employ, and don't take this as an insult but this is one the things about your Dm "Gude" I personally found so unsatisfying, its a guide for advancing monsters when the truth is what people needed and Need is a guide to running the monsters at all. This requires sitting down with the MM and THINKING about what the mosters should be doing in combat. Sadly, doing your homework and thinking are 2 things Americans seem to Abhor doing.
If thats the case it'd be awesome if people like that would dm less. Just my 2c. 

[Sir Giacomo]

Interesting.

Some reality checks:
- the gloves of endless javelins creates javelins with a free action. Thus, you do not draw the javelin and the IF does not work.
- the gloves of endless javelins creates javelins with a free (command) action. Thus, you cannot use it in a silence effect. When you do not have silence up, the command word lets opponents pinpoint you easily (listen check DC 20. The vrock auto-pinpoints the expert from up to 50ft away).
- invisibility does not make opponents flat-footed. Thus, no IF extra damage after round 1 (if at all, see below)
- the expert has spot and listen of -1 each (= most monsters will have the suprise round vs the expert, except the other way round, the greater invisibility only lasts 7 rounds and needs to be activated first). A bit odd for a IF master.
- the expert has initiative +3 (=monsters may have the first round vs the expert). Even more odd for an IF master.
- the bat will have problems with silence up.
- the bat will not be invisible when the expert turns invisible with a wand.
- the bat as a subterranean creature (I think) will not be happy when flying outside. Pushing it eats up a standard action per round.
- the bat will get destroyed quickly by almost all the same challenge tests, leaving the expert on the ground with, in this case, a speed of 20ft. Certainly the breath weapon of a blue dragon will quickly take out the bat. And even the bebilith can jump up somewhat, has a space of 15ft and range of its web is 30ft. Only out in the open the expert may be safe with flying, but cannot hurt the bebilith expect with the wand of magic missiles.
- the DC to find magical traps starts at 25. Just sayin (the expert's bonus is just +17; he is bound to fail in a room full of magical traps)
- as far as I know you need magic to disarm magic traps.
- in case the room filled with magic runes is not about traps, but about important clues in different languages, the expert so far has no method to deal with them.
- the attack bonus with the javelin with rapid shot and invisibility effect up is +11/+11/+6 which somehow does not seem to be too high, eve vs opponents that lose their DEX bonus. Also, when mounted (without mounted archery feats), the attack bonus tanks.
- I guess it is not a young blue dragon, but a young adult blue dragon which is meant to be a challenge at level 10.

In total, I am so far unconvinced that this expert has a good chance in this same level tests, and much less against a monk. Also, I am still waiting for the expert to focus on something the monk cannot easily emulate.

- Giacomo

[skydragonknight]

- as far as I know you need magic to disarm magic traps.
- Giacomo

The Trapfinding class feature can disarm magic traps, though the DC is still pretty high. Other points are valid. Carry on.