Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[carnivore]

And while UMD is an expert class feature, it isn't a monk class feature.


Also the melee touch attack.

it can easily be acquired ... as i showed .. for both

 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The UA feat is only for the generic class system. 

[carnivore]

there are several other ways to gain it ... the UA feat is only one

 

[ninjarabbit]

The problem with the monk trying to optimize UMD is that he does it to the exclusion of his other class abilites (and wealth) and becomes a one trick pony.

At least the expert is a multi-trick pony (UMD, intimidate, diplomacy, handle animal, Iaijutsu Focus, lucid dreaming, knowledge devotion with knowledge skills) and he doesn't have any other class feature to worry about excluding.

[X-Codes]

Ok, I see what's going on now.  Two problems:

1) Skill Knowledge is specifically for the alternative skill system in UA.  It's not for the standard skill system.

2) 11d6 still doesn't kill the Expert (38.5 average damage with a very strong tendency towards the average, vs. the Expert's 57 HP).  It's a standard action to use Wand Strike, as well, so I commend your selective quoting on that matter.

In short: the Expert is still better.

EDIT: Ninja'd on one part.  Fact is, the UA feat *doesn't* give UMD as a class skill because it's not meant for this skill system.  If there are many, pick another.

[carnivore]

no .... optimizing UMD does not make the Monk a One-trick-pony ... it is a very Versatile Skill ... the Monk can fall back on Class abilities and he is not Excluding his other class abilities.

the Build i gave was versatile in several areas and Immune to several Areas that the Example Expert was Proficent in

in addition it was easy to shut down the Expert in his areas of Expertise:

UMD ............. requires expending Resources on Consumable items(Expensive ones, unless Magic is Cheap and easily accessable eveywhere)
intimidate ...... wont work vs my build, character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures, and Creatures Bigger get bonuses against it
diplomacy ...... the build would have to be Optimized to make use of this, it cant do this well with everything else
handle animal .. same as Diplomacy
Iaijutsu Focus .. Reach+Trip tactics are very effective against this if you use a Gnome Swiftrazor
lucid dreaming .. doesnt work vs Creatures that Dont Sleep or Dream
knowledge devotion with knowledge skills .. requires a Lot of Skill points to be effective, wont have enough if he is trying everything else


any one or two areas can be maximized, but a Skill based character must have a lot of Skill points to cover all the areas, Expert doesnt cut it since it cant cover everything at once

the monk doesnt even try, but it has adequate Class abilities to help, which the Expert does not have

 

[Sobolev]

Firstly, Expert and Monk are in the same tier that means at the same level of optimization they should be somewhat compatible in the same party so that neither looks stupid.  The argument resulted from my argumentative friend declaring that that was nonsense and no way was the Expert on the same level as the Monk, the Monk was clearly better.  While my intention was to build something to embarrass a monk (make it look better than a monk) in reality I just needed a tie.  I think this is clearly at LEAST a tie.

Secondarily, if you notice the difference between the tier 1's and the tier 2's, it's versatility.  A sorcerer can break a game in just as many ways as a Wizard.  BUT EACH BUILD ONLY BREAKS THE GAME IN ONE WAY.  A wizard can break it a different way each day.  While you can clearly optimize the Monk for UMD (In fact that terrible pro-monk guy argues for exactly this) it leaves you with a monk, who does some stuff and has UMD.  He can't UPD, he can't intimidate, he can't lucid dreaming, he can't diplomacy, he can't Imperious Command, he can't Handle animal and he can't decide to do Knowledge devotion.  You can make the Monk do ONE of these things, but the Expert is doing all of them at the same time.  The Expert is going to be more relevant in more situations, simply from his one class feature (picking your class skills).

Thirdly, no actual tests were done, I just posted the sheet to my friend, explained Lucid Dreaming and a few other things, and then he told me how everything would be banned.  While I'm tempted to play it in a real game I'm already in two, with a plan to add a third that I'm running so it may be a while before the most excellent Expert joins a party.  Still, I think this is cool, and if I ever play with people who don't optimize I might just optimize this character to make it balance out with an unoptimized Wizard =P

Sorry carnivore, the monk might break even at best.  And again, the purpose of this wasn't for me to build a character and then for teh monk to build a counter.  My character would be more useful in a long term campaign, and thus is in the same tier or better.

Edit: You actually are excluding your other abilities, since all of your feats are spent trying to copy what I already do.

[carnivore]

the easiest way  .... like this:

Rogue 1/ Monk 9 ..... virtually the same but with way better Skills

Factotum 1/ Monk 9 .... even more skills

compared to something Similar:

Rogue 1/ Monk 9 vs Rogue 1/ Expert 9..... Monk build is WAY ahead

Factotum 1/ Monk 9 vs Factotum 1/ Expert 9 .... again the same, Monk is WAY ahead

both builds are for the Majority: Monk or Expert..... adding the additional classes, levels the Playingfield and demonstrates the relative strength of both classes

 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Which two skills are you advancing during your 9 monk levels?

[JaronK]

Wait, let me get this straight.  Are you arguing that Monks are better because when you dip a class to add class skills to the Monk, that's better than dipping the same class to NOT add class skills to the Expert?

Really?  I see two things drastically wrong with adding a different class to Monks to add class skills to them as a way of proving Monks are better than another class, when you then add the same class to Expert at no benefit.  Can you see those two things?

JaronK

[carnivore]

Sorry carnivore, the monk might break even at best.  And again, the purpose of this wasn't for me to build a character and then for teh monk to build a counter.  My character would be more useful in a long term campaign, and thus is in the same tier or better.

Edit: You actually are excluding your other abilities, since all of your feats are spent trying to copy what I already do.

the Monk would be very versatile in a Long Term campaign, since the Monks Class Abilities continue to Scale without even trying... also i only spent a single feat to Duplicate anything your Expert had(gain UMD as a Class Skill)

in addition, your Expert could not do Knowledge Devotion well, it just lacked enough Skill points to add that to what you already wanted to do

the Monk build could focus on several other areas without constantly trying to keep up with all the areas that the Expert was only doing a Mediocre job at .... items could easily allow the Monk to keep up

 

[carnivore]

i did not say Monks are Better .... only that the Test is Flawed and the results are skewed in a way that gives false results

level the Playingfield with a Standardized test that compares Apples to Apples

 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Like what?  Flurry doesn't scale well, your speed bonus doesn't stack with anything, your AC bonus is depreciated by the monk's belt, your unarmed damage isn't as good as just using a decent weapon, slow fall is situational (and it costs like 25 gp to get better protection), immunity to diseases is very situational, wholeness of body is worse than just using a wand of lesser vigor or a healing belt.  The only class ability that scales decently is evasion, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.

[carnivore]

Which two skills are you advancing during your 9 monk levels?

monks get 4 skill points per level

UMD, Tumble, Spot, Sense Motive ..... would probably be what i would focus on mainly, and i would have 5 Skill points per lvl(Nymphs Kiss)

 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

UMD still costs two points for being cross-class.

[Sobolev]

Carnivore, you sound like my friend =P

But on topic, forcing everyone to pick the same feats doesn't level the playing field, as I said earlier in the thread it A) removes feats, an important part of a build B) Puts overemphasis on bonus feats C) Makes magic users EVEN BETTER, clearly not a balanced system.

Secondly as someone else said, you're comparing splashing factotum to give your monk skill points and then arguing that that's better because Expert splash Factotum does nothing.  Of course it does nothing, it's in fact redundant.

And as TML said.
Speed doesn't stack, AC is irrelevant, unarmed damage is weak and slow fall is best traded for the ACF that lets you run on water.  Immunity to diseases never comes up and Healing belt (which everyone should have at low levels) kicks your healing ability so hard.  If Evasion were the end all, rogues would be amazing.

You also continue to ignore that I had 9 skill points per level and the 5 extra skills were in fact relevant.  Just because using magic items is powerful (and thus UMD is powerful) doesn't mean that the build did nothing else.  It had 10 class skills if you look back and all of them were pretty powerful, much more powerful than taking a bunch of levels in monk in order to get immunity to disease.

Edit: It's worth noting that I did eventually not use Knowledge Devotion because I thought it was the weakest option.  You easily could do that instead of something else though.

[X-Codes]

UMD ............. requires expending Resources on Consumable items(Expensive ones, unless Magic is Cheap and easily accessable eveywhere)
intimidate ...... wont work vs my build, character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures, and Creatures Bigger get bonuses against it
diplomacy ...... the build would have to be Optimized to make use of this, it cant do this well with everything else
handle animal .. same as Diplomacy
Iaijutsu Focus .. Reach+Trip tactics are very effective against this if you use a Gnome Swiftrazor
lucid dreaming .. doesnt work vs Creatures that Dont Sleep or Dream
knowledge devotion with knowledge skills .. requires a Lot of Skill points to be effective, wont have enough if he is trying everything else

Ok, I'm going to say it.  The last 3 skills are bullshit, and nobody really cares.  Iaijutsu Focus adds pathetic damage for a heavy investment of skill ranks.  Beyond that it does nothing.  Lucid Dreaming is 3.0 and it's doubtful that any DM would allow it in their game, making it a TO skill.  (It's utterly pointless, anyway, you don't need it to be awesome.)  Knowledge Devotion is nice for characters with lots of skill points and nothing better to spend on them, NOT for classes like Experts, Factotums, Bards, etc. that generally have better things to do, and especially not at level 10.

As for the rest, since you're dipping classes now...

Azurin Expert 9/Incarnate 1

Stats (22 pb): 8 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha
Feats: Bonus Essentia, Imperious Command
Items: Circlet of Persuasion, Fearsome Armor, Stone of Good Luck, Masterwork Diplomacy Tool
Notable Soulmelds: Theft Gloves, Silvertongue Mask, Mage's Spectacles, Riding Bracers

UMD: 12 ranks + 8 max-investment Mage's Spectacles + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 1 Stone of Good Luck + 4 Charisma = +28, never fail to activate any spell completion or command word item of any level.

Intimidate: 12 ranks + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 5 Armor + 8 Divine Insight (wand, see above) + 4 Charisma + 2 Synergy= +34, plus they Cower for a round.

Diplomacy: 12 ranks + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 6 max-investment Silvertongue Mask + 4 Charisma + 6 Synergy + 1 Stone of Good Luck + 2 Masterwork Tool = +34, never fail to turn a Hostile crowd Indifferent as a full-round action.

Handle Animal: 12 ranks + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 8 max-investment Riding Bracers + 4 Charisma + 1 Stone of Good Luck = +28, rear any 23 HD Animal or any 18 HD Magical Beast, and teach them any/all skill tricks by taking 10.

15 ranks put into Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), and Sense Motive for synergy bonuses, you have more than enough leftover.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

iaijutsu damage is about equivalent with sneak attack, without using item familiar.  I've done the numbers.

[dark_samuari]

Carnivore, the problem I have with your build (which mechanically is rather nice) is that is solely built around negating the tactics of the already posted Expert build. You aren't providing an actually decent monk build but rather placing all your focus into negating the expert (which looks to be a stand-alone build suitable for most situations).

[X-Codes]

iaijutsu damage is about equivalent with sneak attack, without using item familiar.  I've done the numbers.

There's enough skill points leftover to dump some into Iaijutsu and get a +20ish mod, but meh.  It doesn't have the style of riding a Frost Worm or casting miracle from a scroll at 10th level.  Also, the whole ability to shout "PARLEY!" while pirates are trying to kill you and actually have them listen was the gag line for a great movie.