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Author Topic: [3.5]Super Robot Wars d20-Personal Mechas powered up by your spirits!  (Read 27689 times)
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oslecamo
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« on: October 03, 2010, 09:02:26 PM »


All mechas are awesome, but some mechas are more awesome than others.


Introduction
This thread aims to allowing 3.5 players to add Mechas to their campaigns. And by Mechas I mean the kind of stuff you're expected to find in a Super Robot Wars game, so this thread will burrow heavily from that game's mechanics. No robots powered up by souls or angst here!

Done:
Spirit List
Ace Pilot school
Real Pilot class
Real Robot list, mecha combat, mechas vs non-mecha.
Arsenal-weapons and acessories.
Burning Justice school for super robots
Super Pilot class
Super Robot list
Ship Captain, Ships Full of Hope School, Battleships
Into the Danger Zone school

To be done in the near future:
-Teamwork school.
-Advanced Energy fields
-Advanced Funnels.

Old stuff, now kinda irrelevant
-Ships Full of Hope School.
-Captain Class.
-Motherships.


Mecha basics
-Mechas depend heavily on who's piloting them. The strongest mechas of all are custom-built for certain persons and will only work for them, or at least will work better when piloted by said persons.
-Mechas have the following statistics: HP, Energy, Dodge, DR, Resistance, Size, Movement, Weapons, Parts, Extras
-HP is self-explicit. A mecha doesn't have HD and uses it's pilots HD for any effects that call for it.
-Energy is used to power up certain weapons and extras. It works as a balancing factor as the best abilities and weapons will always cost energy, so stacking your robot with super lazer swords, energy fields and combo attacks will make it drain it's energy in an instant. Robots automatically regenerate some energy every turn.
-Dodge is how good a robot is at, well, dodging. Stacks with either the Pilot's Dex or Wis.
-DR(damage reduction) is how good a robot is at shrugging off blows. Stacks with the Pilot's Con or Cha.
-Resistances is a bonus to saves.
-Size is self-explicit. Bigger robots can carry bigger stronger weapons, but are easier to hit themselves.
-Movement is again self explicit. All robots are at least equiped with thrusters that allow them to jump over obstacles and close in with flying oponents for enough time to punch them in the face at the cost of 1 energy per 5 feet(can fly in their own turn, but then they fall), and move in zero-gravity enviroments. Some robots are actualy able to fly permanently in the atmosphere, but that drains energy faster.(2 energy for 5 feet of movement)
-Weapons: mechas are equiped with a certain set of weapons, wich can also be actualy special combo attacks combining several of the mechas base weapons. Each weapon has it's own ammo (or drains energy), damage, range, crit and a bonus/penalty to hit (Stacking with either the Pilot's Int or Str score), and also if they're heavy or assault. Heavy weapons cannot be fired after moving, assault weapons can. Some weapons may affect an area or inflict status effects. Certain weapons may be easily swapped from the robot like machine guns and basic swords.
-Parts are the equipment of a robot. A robot doesn't actualy has equipment slots and can do stuff like equip multiple armors, but each robot can only equip a very limited of parts at a time.
- Extras are for everything else, like self-regenerating systems or jammers. Many extras replicate Parts, but they cannot be de-tached from the robot.
-Mechas protect their carriers from all harm, but add their saves to protect themselves.
-Mechas don't have any specific immunities, but can shrugg off negative effects on a single round because a good mecha that hasn't been destroyed never stays just "disabled" for long.
-Mechas are extremely user-friendly and anybody can sit and pilot one.

Pilot basics:
-Pilots have two main statistics, Will and Spirit.
-Will is a "gauge" that starts at 100 at the beginning of the battle and can rise up to 150 as you fight. It confers a small bonus to your combat abilities, but more important, the mecha's strongest weapons and abilities are only "unlocked" when you reach enough Will
-Spirits are temporary boosts that pilots can give to their mechas representing, well, their spirits! Fluffed as the mechas being made of speciall alloyes that react to the pilots feelings. They cost spirit points wich are limited. Base list of spirits:
-Strike:+20 to hit for 1 turn
-Alert:+20 to dodge and +10 to saves against the next attack
-Focus:+6 to dodge and +3 to saves for 1 turn.
-Valor: double damage dealt on next attack.
-Guts: fully heal your robot's HP.


Issues to decide
-Instead of spirits,  mechas are able to channel the natural abilities of the pilot? So a master swordsman would be able to perform amazing sword blows with his mecha, while a wizard would be able to channel his spells trough his machine. Custom mechas may make those abilities even better than normal.
-In alternative, when a player enters a mecha they can replace their feats by mecha feats, representing SRW pilot abilities like gunfight or attacker.
-Do we relly need pilot classes or feats? Or should we make it so that anyone can pilot directly on a mecha whitout any previous training at all? I prefer that, so players don't weaken their out-of-mecha power in order to be able to pilot them.
-How do the players get mechas?
A-Pilot class automatically gives them, balance it against non-pilots (they start with basically power armor).
B-Filthy expensive equipment, balance it against other filthy expensive equipment.
C-Everybody gets mechas for free, including the enemies! Players are expected to only fight on their own foots in places where mechas don't fit or if they feel really lucky. Stronger people get stronger mechas. Personally my favorite since this is suposed to be for mecha campaigns. Provide list of "mook" mechas for lazy DMs.
-How do we stat the mechas? One generic template to rule them all? Stat them one by one? Something in between? (super robot template? Divine Crusaders template? Gesppent template?)
-Rules for mechas with multiple pilots, or deal with that once we get the basics done?


Generic Fluff:
Giant meteor containing misterous technology crashed on the seting. The local races manage to reverse-enginner it creating mechas. Too sleepy to think of anything better for now.

First Draft


Gespent MK II


HP: 500
Energy:100 (regenerate 5)
Dodge: +8
DR:20/-
Size: Huge
Movement: 60 feet land.
Weapons:
-Split missiles, Ammo 20 +6 to hit, 2d6 damage, crit 18-20 x2, 80 foot range, heavy
-Machine gun, Ammo 10 +4 to Hit, 3d6 damage, normal crit, 50 foot range, assault
-Plasma Stakes, 20 Energy+110 Will, +2 to Hit, 6d6 damage, crit x3, 20 foot range, assault

« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:30:54 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Prime32
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 09:36:42 PM »

Might be a bit too detached from standard D&D mechanics.

In a mecha campaign the focus is presumably on the mecha. I'd stat them like PCs, and limit the pilots to NPC classes and/or use E6. Maybe you have a second set of feats, etc. for piloting. Likewise, mobile suits are the new Medium, while humans are Diminutive. Or the size system could become relative rather than absolute.

Maybe a martial discipline for Super Robot attacks (like "pull out a giant sword", "fire a giant chest laser" etc.) to make it easier to load up on such abilities? Most Supers would dip the class - when you take too many levels you end up with Combattler V/Voltes V (tons of distinct attacks with decent power but high energy cost, average stats otherwise).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:48:58 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
veekie
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 03:48:43 AM »

^^
Well, mechas exist in two main versions, the 'equipment' type(or Real), where the pilot executes his skills and feats through them, a better robot is the equivalent of a +5 sword, it helps the pilot do better, but give him something from the junkheap and he can still perform his iconics. You could probably do this with D&D, make the robot fancy equipment and have the machine simply upscale the pilot's abilities up to robot scale. Perhaps switch abilities and damage up to Mega scales.

The more robot intensive version where the pilot is basically an adjunct is probably best handled with Mutants & Masterminds or the like.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Prime32
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 04:54:23 AM »

Some rough work I did on this:
Heir of Kwalish class
Giant Robots

Spirit Commands are roughly analogous to Action Points. I figure there could be separate classes for Real Robot and Super Robot pilots, or at least ways to build a pilot class in either direction. Super pilots get more action points, maybe the ability to use unfettered heroism (spell which gives you 1 free action point per round).


One obstacle is that Real pilots tend to have higher mental stats, while Super pilots tend to be better physically. In D&D this means that Reals will be piloted by wizards and Supers will be piloted by fighters. That's... um...

This is one of the reasons I support E6 for pilots - I'd suggest disallowing ways to cast spells from inside a mech, and makng mental stats more useful to non-casters.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 05:00:02 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
The_Mad_Linguist
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Simulated Thing


« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 04:58:17 AM »

^^
Well, mechas exist in two main versions, the 'equipment' type(or Real), where the pilot executes his skills and feats through them, a better robot is the equivalent of a +5 sword, it helps the pilot do better, but give him something from the junkheap and he can still perform his iconics. You could probably do this with D&D, make the robot fancy equipment and have the machine simply upscale the pilot's abilities up to robot scale. Perhaps switch abilities and damage up to Mega scales.
Eh, not sure about that one.  Gurren Lagann is the epitome of super robots, and the pilot matters a lot more than the mecha there.
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My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
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Prime32
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 05:01:36 AM »

^^
Well, mechas exist in two main versions, the 'equipment' type(or Real), where the pilot executes his skills and feats through them, a better robot is the equivalent of a +5 sword, it helps the pilot do better, but give him something from the junkheap and he can still perform his iconics. You could probably do this with D&D, make the robot fancy equipment and have the machine simply upscale the pilot's abilities up to robot scale. Perhaps switch abilities and damage up to Mega scales.
Eh, not sure about that one.  Gurren Lagann is the epitome of super robots, and the pilot matters a lot more than the mecha there.
Pre-timeskip, if you stuck the TTGL pilots in Gundams they'd get slaughtered. Likewise Char Aznable is dangerous even in a mook unit, but he wouldn't be able to make a Ganmen move.

Super Robot series emphasise the bond between the pilot and machine as the source of power as often as the machine itself. Usually the question is whether you could see the pilot replicating the robot's feats. Reals do things like swing lightsabers beam sabers and shoot guns. Supers fire lasers from their chests or rip off bodyparts and use them as boomerangs.


Here's a comparison:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperRobot
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealRobot
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 05:21:27 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
veekie
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 9034


WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 05:46:31 AM »

^^
Well, mechas exist in two main versions, the 'equipment' type(or Real), where the pilot executes his skills and feats through them, a better robot is the equivalent of a +5 sword, it helps the pilot do better, but give him something from the junkheap and he can still perform his iconics. You could probably do this with D&D, make the robot fancy equipment and have the machine simply upscale the pilot's abilities up to robot scale. Perhaps switch abilities and damage up to Mega scales.
Eh, not sure about that one.  Gurren Lagann is the epitome of super robots, and the pilot matters a lot more than the mecha there.
Reals are pilots with a broad base of skills they can apply to any kind of equipment they are reasonably familiar with. In essence the pilot is a separate character from his ride, the same relation between a D&D character and his equipment.
Supers have pilots where the pilot is practically an extension of his machine. In essence, his machine IS his character, a really massive Device power, if you'd have it that way. Separated from each other, they are both of questionable effectiveness, even paired up with another skilled pilot/powerful machine.

Consider this.
Put a skilled gundam pilot in any machine he can make function at all(that is, not solely accessible to a specific form of technobabble), and once he works out the controls he'd be able to defeat enemies with strategy and tactics.
Put a skilled super pilot in a machine other than his favored and he isn't going to do much. Put someone else in the wrong kind of super and it generally doesn't work at all.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
The_Mad_Linguist
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 8780


Simulated Thing


« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 07:01:34 AM »

Kamina did pretty well with just some random mech that time Gurren got stolen.
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Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.
veekie
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 9034


WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 07:11:46 AM »

Same category of super though, powered by GAR.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
oslecamo
Grape ape
*****
Posts: 1940



« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 08:02:29 AM »

Might be a bit too detached from standard D&D mechanics.
That's standard D&D mechanics. Psionics, Incarnum, ToB, ToM, Stormwrack, they all have distinct mechanics.

In a mecha campaign the focus is presumably on the mecha. I'd stat them like PCs, and limit the pilots to NPC classes and/or use E6.
Meh, I kinda wanted the PCs to still be somewhat awesome outside their mechas, like Elzam Ratsel gunning his way trough a base full of cyborgs, or master Ryushi parrying bullets with an orichalcum sword, or Kyosuke shrugging off space shuttle crashes.

Maybe you have a second set of feats, etc. for piloting.
How about everybody gestalts a normal class/pilot class? I don't know why I didn't think of that before.

Likewise, mobile suits are the new Medium, while humans are Diminutive. Or the size system could become relative rather than absolute.
I like that. In SRW humies are so puny that they don't even appear on the map. If anything's smaller than an human it doesn't really matter.

Maybe a martial discipline for Super Robot attacks (like "pull out a giant sword", "fire a giant chest laser" etc.) to make it easier to load up on such abilities? Most Supers would dip the class - when you take too many levels you end up with Combattler V/Voltes V (tons of distinct attacks with decent power but high energy cost, average stats otherwise).
Well, there would be room for maneuvers, but I don't see why we can't just stat base mecha weapons to begin with.

Well, mechas exist in two main versions, the 'equipment' type(or Real), where the pilot executes his skills and feats through them, a better robot is the equivalent of a +5 sword, it helps the pilot do better, but give him something from the junkheap and he can still perform his iconics. You could probably do this with D&D, make the robot fancy equipment and have the machine simply upscale the pilot's abilities up to robot scale. Perhaps switch abilities and damage up to Mega scales.
Maybe too oversimplified, but that aproach may work as well. Mechas are basically super suits of armor that increase your size and give you bonus to your normal stuff. Heck, some series work almost like that, like Escaflowne.

Spirit Commands are roughly analogous to Action Points. I figure there could be separate classes for Real Robot and Super Robot pilots, or at least ways to build a pilot class in either direction. Super pilots get more action points, maybe the ability to use unfettered heroism (spell which gives you 1 free action point per round).
I don't really like action points because you can choose to use them after things go wrong, not before, thus making PCs basically invincible.

For example, in SRW you want to use alert before attacking the BBEG even if it has less than 50% chance of hiting you because you know a single connecting blow and you you're toast, but with action points you can lulz and only expend alert when you really need to (and are also able to use alert multiple times in a single turn making you basically untouchable while you have action points left).

Also no real reason why super robots get more of those (no pun intended). Spirit points can also represent a character's cold focus and skill at it's best, or TROMBE!

One obstacle is that Real pilots tend to have higher mental stats, while Super pilots tend to be better physically.
I would disagree with that. Many super robots are piloted by little little children/teenagers whitout any actual combat training. Many real robots are piloted by veteran soldiers. If you put Shinji Hikari and pre-timeskip Simon teaming up against Holland on a fists fight, they would get their asses handed over to them.

This is one of the reasons I support E6 for pilots - I'd suggest disallowing ways to cast spells from inside a mech, and makng mental stats more useful to non-casters.

Well, we could always put a cap on what spells you can cast from inside a mecha (and do notice some mechas basically attack with magic spells, cough Valsione, cough Elemental Lords, cough)

I also sugested that the mecha combat skills can be tied to either your mental and physical stats.

Pre-timeskip, if you stuck the TTGL pilots in Gundams they'd get slaughtered. Likewise Char Aznable is dangerous even in a mook unit, but he wouldn't be able to make a Ganmen move.
Ok now you're just being silly. If Char got on that first captured Ganmen, it wouldn't just move, it would be 3 times as fast because it was painted red! Big Grin

Also Yoko with a gundam would be plain scary.

Super Robot series emphasise the bond between the pilot and machine as the source of power as often as the machine itself. Usually the question is whether you could see the pilot replicating the robot's feats. Reals do things like swing lightsabers beam sabers and shoot guns. Supers fire lasers from their chests or rip off bodyparts and use them as boomerangs.
But more often than not that diference is very blurred.

Take R-1 for example. It starts as a real robot... Untill you notice this machine can channel a specific pilot's psychic waves to deliver FALCON PUNCH and even materialize swords to throw at his enemies.

The Alteisen is a super robot, untill you notice it's actualy weighted down by the laws of physics and it's main weapons are kinectic projectiles that demand large bulky exterior containers instead of being hidden inside it's main body.

And then we have stuff like the fairlions that have paper armor and mini-laser blades, yet defeat their oponents by syncronizing dancing!

So I don't think we shouldn't stablish a very strong diference between super and real robots here, so the above examples can be replicated.

Anyway, I guess we can start with the first voting. Stat-wise, what should mechas be?
A-Class, as you gain exp you gain mecha levels wich you use to gain better upgrades. Pilot re-legated to secondary position.

B-Glorified armor/weapons, mechas are pimped out power suits that may be several times bigger than you but still work based on your base abilities.

C-Massive "creatures" following distinct new set of rules wich need a controler/pilot to act.

D-Something else I missed on the above discussion


« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 08:05:53 AM by oslecamo » Logged

veekie
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WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 08:29:09 AM »

While using the D&D system, I'd favor B for compatibility with other D&D mechanics.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
*
Posts: 7534


Modding since 03/12/10


« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 08:42:32 AM »

In a mecha campaign the focus is presumably on the mecha. I'd stat them like PCs, and limit the pilots to NPC classes and/or use E6.
Meh, I kinda wanted the PCs to still be somewhat awesome outside their mechas, like Elzam Ratsel gunning his way trough a base full of cyborgs, or master Ryushi parrying bullets with an orichalcum sword, or Kyosuke shrugging off space shuttle crashes.
An lv6 character who has advanced by a few feats can do that (lv6 is peak human achievement, after all), especially if the cyborgs are lv1 characters with NPC classes.

Quote
Maybe you have a second set of feats, etc. for piloting.
How about everybody gestalts a normal class/pilot class? I don't know why I didn't think of that before.
But what about feats which apply only for your mech?

Quote
Maybe a martial discipline for Super Robot attacks (like "pull out a giant sword", "fire a giant chest laser" etc.) to make it easier to load up on such abilities? Most Supers would dip the class - when you take too many levels you end up with Combattler V/Voltes V (tons of distinct attacks with decent power but high energy cost, average stats otherwise).
Well, there would be room for maneuvers, but I don't see why we can't just stat base mecha weapons to begin with.
Reals will fight with the same sword all encounter, but Supers tend to pull out a specific weapon for each attack then put it away.

Quote
Also no real reason why super robots get more of those (no pun intended). Spirit points can also represent a character's cold focus and skill at it's best, or TROMBE!
AP/similar abilities seem to represent control over one's own destiny to some extent.

Quote
This is one of the reasons I support E6 for pilots - I'd suggest disallowing ways to cast spells from inside a mech, and makng mental stats more useful to non-casters.
Well, we could always put a cap on what spells you can cast from inside a mecha (and do notice some mechas basically attack with magic spells, cough Valsione, cough Elemental Lords, cough)
That's not casting spells directly though - more like the mech has wands/staffs built in.

Quote
The Alteisen is a super robot, untill you notice it's actualy weighted down by the laws of physics and it's main weapons are kinectic projectiles that demand large bulky exterior containers instead of being hidden inside it's main body.
Alteisen isn't a Super, it's an overspecced Real. This is stated repeatedly in-game. Heck, its main gimmick is that it doesn't use any of the Extra-Over Technology powering the other mechs.

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And then we have stuff like the fairlions that have paper armor and mini-laser blades, yet defeat their oponents by syncronizing dancing!
Most Reals have preprogrammed movement sequences, the Fairlions just have weird ones.

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So I don't think we shouldn't stablish a very strong diference between super and real robots here, so the above examples can be replicated.
Which is why multiclassing exists.

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Anyway, I guess we can start with the first voting. Stat-wise, what should mechas be?
A-Class, as you gain exp you gain mecha levels wich you use to gain better upgrades. Pilot re-legated to secondary position.

B-Glorified armor/weapons, mechas are pimped out power suits that may be several times bigger than you but still work based on your base abilities.

C-Massive "creatures" following distinct new set of rules wich need a controler/pilot to act.

D-Something else I missed on the above discussion
Could some kind of hybrid of B and C be used, to simulate cases where robots go berserk? (eg. Mazinkaiser, Eva-01)
Maybe there could be rules for multiple pilots, and Super Robots count as having a built-in copilot (you can increase the skills of this "pilot" through feats, etc. and it can take actions to interfere with the mech's operation).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 08:47:02 AM by Prime32 » Logged

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The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
oslecamo
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2010, 10:31:42 AM »

An lv6 character who has advanced by a few feats can do that (lv6 is peak human achievement, after all), especially if the cyborgs are lv1 characters with NPC classes.
-Parrying bullets
-Surviving space shuttle crashes

Hmm, unless I missed some godlike feats, I don't think you can do those in E6. Kyosuke is even used on TVtropes as an example of "Iron Body" and "Nobody could have survived that!", wich are hallmarks of medium-high level characters. And then we get stuff like Wodan Dymir who gets a revolver stake shoved trough his body and shruggs it off.

Agreed however the bioroids would be lv 1 mooks, but even those can swarm a lv 6 character.

But what about feats which apply only for your mech?
Pilot classes grant mecha feats galore?

Reals will fight with the same sword all encounter, but Supers tend to pull out a specific weapon for each attack then put it away.
Eeer, no.

99,9% of super robots have more weapons that you can shake a stick at from, like:
-Drill knuckles
-Horns
-Glass boomerangs
-Eye/chest/finger lazers
-Missile massacres
-Giant yo-yos

 And then the sword is the ultimate finisher attack. Daizengar is the only super who fights mainly with his sword, and even then it's because it's other weapons were disabled.

Just look at Alpha Gaiden! Reals have like 3-4 attacks, sometimes only 2, but supers have multiple pages worth of attacks! And yes, most of them are diferent exotic weapons, not just the same weapon used in a diferent way.

AP/similar abilities seem to represent control over one's own destiny to some extent.
But there's a big diference between.
-I'll put all my energy on the next blow so it better hit or I'm screwed!

and

-Something went wrong? Plot power to the rescue!

For me, being able to activate spirits in reaction instead of anticipation kills the mood of the game, because the chances of you failing drop to zero while you have AP to spend, whereas you need to plan ahead when to spend spirit points.

That's not casting spells directly though - more like the mech has wands/staffs built in.
Hmm, you've got a point there.

Alteisen isn't a Super, it's an overspecced Real. This is stated repeatedly in-game.
What game? Because in OG II it's stated that it is a super robot when Kyosuke goes sugest his upgrade ("bigger armor, weapons, the main strenghts of a super robot", are the words of the creator). And on the gamesfaq guides as well.

Heck, its main gimmick is that it doesn't use any of the Extra-Over Technology powering the other mechs.
REAL men don't need sissy alien technology for their super robots:D

BTW, it's main gimmick it's that it would be impossible for anyone else to pilot the Alteisen whitout killing themselves, wich is as super robotish as you get.

Most Reals have preprogrammed movement sequences, the Fairlions just have weird ones.
Then why does Shine states the fairlions gimmick it's that Latooni can control them both at the same time and when they perform the RHB, she states that she's handling the commands to Latooni (wich then replies she'll take the enemy solo).

Which is why multiclassing exists.
Wich would only apply if we make the robots as classes.

Could some kind of hybrid of B and C be used, to simulate cases where robots go berserk? (eg. Mazinkaiser, Eva-01)
I believe that could be covered by intelgent items rule. Those robots would be sentient armor/weapons, with an ego score, and if you don't take care they take over you.

Maybe there could be rules for multiple pilots, and Super Robots count as having a built-in copilot (you can increase the skills of this "pilot" through feats, etc. and it can take actions to interfere with the mech's operation).

I guess extra pilots could work as cohorts, following you around drooling, but I then would limit their actions to supporting you with spirits like SRW does. May be kinda oversimplification, but I'm not sure if even the authors of the series know what the co-pilots are doing besides shouting encouragement.

If nothing else, I say the co-pilots are running the boring maintenance protocols to keep the mecha running, like the SRX, where Aya and Rai control the psychic flow and tronium engine output respectively, so Ryusei can fully focus on maneuvering the robot itself whitout risk of a reactor meltdown or his own brain exploding.

Speaking of wich, could anyone summarize how the squad systems on the Alpha series and SRW Z work? Would make a nice adition on my opinion.
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Prime32
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2010, 10:54:19 AM »

Reals will fight with the same sword all encounter, but Supers tend to pull out a specific weapon for each attack then put it away.
Eeer, no.

99,9% of super robots have more weapons that you can shake a stick at from, like:
-Drill knuckles
-Horns
-Glass boomerangs
-Eye/chest/finger lazers
-Missile massacres
-Giant yo-yos

 And then the sword is the ultimate finisher attack. Daizengar is the only super who fights mainly with his sword, and even then it's because it's other weapons were disabled.

Just look at Alpha Gaiden! Reals have like 3-4 attacks, sometimes only 2, but supers have multiple pages worth of attacks! And yes, most of them are diferent exotic weapons, not just the same weapon used in a diferent way.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. You seem to have repeated what I just said. Confused

Quote
Alteisen isn't a Super, it's an overspecced Real. This is stated repeatedly in-game.
What game? Because in OG II it's stated that it is a super robot when Kyosuke goes sugest his upgrade ("bigger armor, weapons, the main strenghts of a super robot", are the words of the creator). And on the gamesfaq guides as well.
Correction: it's "a Real with the main strengths of a Super Robot".

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BTW, it's main gimmick it's that it would be impossible for anyone else to pilot the Alteisen whitout killing themselves, wich is as super robotish as you get.
*cough* Tallguese *cough* Psychoframes *cough*
And I thought it was just really hard to pilot due to being so poorly balanced (heck, the upgrade needs a freaking anti-grav drive just to stand up), meaning that you would get killed quickly.

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Most Reals have preprogrammed movement sequences, the Fairlions just have weird ones.
Then why does Shine states the fairlions gimmick it's that Latooni can control them both at the same time and when they perform the RHB, she states that she's handling the commands to Latooni (wich then replies she'll take the enemy solo).
The Fairlions were designed with the capability to transmit data between each other and operate each others' controls, to take advantage of Shine's precognition and Latooni's piloting skills.

Quote
Speaking of wich, could anyone summarize how the squad systems on the Alpha series and SRW Z work? Would make a nice adition on my opinion.
I believe Cubey summarises them in his LP.
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[Centre: ]in this formation the two squad members attack first (using their platoon attack, marked by the PLA tag - they'll do it even if the squad moved and it's not a post-movement attack, but the enemy still has to be in range and everything), dealing somewhat reduced damage. Then the squad leader attacks with whatever you've chosen. It's a good formation to deal with singular enemies.

It also lets the squad members Defensively Support each other. So does the Line formation in fact, but not the Wide one.
Quote
Maybe I should've used the Wide formation - squad members receive only 50% damage from ALL/TRI attacks if I use that, but on the other hand they use their PLA attacks on enemy squad members rather than the leader (so when there is only one unit in an enemy squad, they don't do anything and are useless).
Quote
Line doesn't look too hot at first. The squad leader attacks normally, the members sit behind (making it a bit easier to dodge for them) but do nothing. There's one benefit though - the powerful TRI attack can only be performed in Line Formation. All three squadmates unleash a bullet hell on the enemy, but only the leader actually uses up ammo, energy or whatnot. It counts as a powerful ALL attack whose damage is not reduced when there's more than one target (unlike ALL attacks), and it pierces most barriers too. So, quite useful.
Quote
Fortunately, repair works on all units in the squad at once.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:12:39 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2010, 12:08:24 PM »

I'm not sure what you're arguing. You seem to have repeated what I just said. Confused
DOH-I somehow tought you said reals had lots of weapons and supers just one weapon! Sorry about that! Embarrassed

Correction: it's "a Real with the main strengths of a Super Robot".
So we have a "real" with the strenghts of a super robot, yet none of the advantages of a real robot (can't dodge, miserable range, non viable for mass production). So you're saying that if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck then it isn't a duck? Tongue

The Fairlions were designed with the capability to transmit data between each other and operate each others' controls, to take advantage of Shine's precognition and Latooni's piloting skills.
Indeed. Then why would they need pre-programmed maneuvers? Latooni's just that good that she can micro both robots dancing at the same time while Shine warns her of the enemy moves.

I believe Cubey summarises them in his LP.
Quote
[Centre: ]in this formation the two squad members attack first (using their platoon attack, marked by the PLA tag - they'll do it even if the squad moved and it's not a post-movement attack, but the enemy still has to be in range and everything), dealing somewhat reduced damage. Then the squad leader attacks with whatever you've chosen. It's a good formation to deal with singular enemies.

It also lets the squad members Defensively Support each other. So does the Line formation in fact, but not the Wide one.
Quote
Maybe I should've used the Wide formation - squad members receive only 50% damage from ALL/TRI attacks if I use that, but on the other hand they use their PLA attacks on enemy squad members rather than the leader (so when there is only one unit in an enemy squad, they don't do anything and are useless).
Quote
Line doesn't look too hot at first. The squad leader attacks normally, the members sit behind (making it a bit easier to dodge for them) but do nothing. There's one benefit though - the powerful TRI attack can only be performed in Line Formation. All three squadmates unleash a bullet hell on the enemy, but only the leader actually uses up ammo, energy or whatnot. It counts as a powerful ALL attack whose damage is not reduced when there's more than one target (unlike ALL attacks), and it pierces most barriers too. So, quite useful.
Quote
Fortunately, repair works on all units in the squad at once.
Nice, but first better take care of the basic stuff.

Second Draft


Mecha
-Mechas counts as armor and fill a player's armor slot, wich shall from now on be called the pilot.
-Like normal armor, most mechas have a max dex bonus, ASF, ASP.
-Mechas provide several enanchments, AC bonus, and/or bonus to your base abilities. They also may allow you to use mental scores instead of physical scores for combat.
-The Pilot can only use weapons and items built on the mecha, or exterior weapons/items of the mecha's size.(so for example a medium sized mecha, basically power armor, allows for use of normal weapons/items, while a large mecha would allow to use siege weaponry like ballistas, but not regular weapons)
-You can only use a mecha of your size or bigger.
-You count as the size of the mecha for all purposes while inside it.
-While inside the mecha you have total cover against everybody else, but can see others just fine. Some mechas even provide enanched senses are automatically immune to suffocation (and all attacks that would rely on breath), ability damage and drain, energy drain and effects demanding a Fort Save (unless they also affect objects) and gaze attacks. Certain mechas may provide aditional immunities and/or resistances.
-The Mecha itself can however be targeted normally, having a certain amount of HP. Reducing a mecha to zero HP disables it. Certain mechas come with ejection devices that allow the pilot to escape in such situation.
-Mechas have the same immunities as inanimate objects, and also good hardness scores.
-If an attack on a mecha is a sucessull crit, both the mecha and pilot take damage. Heavier mechas may have a "fortification" ability that protects the pilot.

The above base traits look good to you?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:19:18 PM by oslecamo » Logged

veekie
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2010, 02:09:41 PM »

The Fairlions use Dervish techniques for that. Big Grin

As for the above, suffocation immunity is not generally a given(mecha designed primarily for ground and lower air combat are not always vacuum proof), but I guess it's common enough to assume.
For damage, note that the mecha (usually) provides total cover to the pilot, but it's hard to quantize a cockpit shot(maybe the equivalent of a vorpal attack). While many mecha have death throes(intended or otherwise), pilots survive enough of them that it's a tough call.
Also, as the mecha is an object it'd have Hardness in place of energy resistances and DR. It's attacks also probably count as area attacks against normal sized creatures, especially if it's 2 or more size categories larger.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
oslecamo
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2010, 02:46:18 PM »

For damage, note that the mecha (usually) provides total cover to the pilot, but it's hard to quantize a cockpit shot(maybe the equivalent of a vorpal attack).
That's for what crits are for.

Anyway will add the total cover thingy.

While many mecha have death throes(intended or otherwise), pilots survive enough of them that it's a tough call.
That's more plot shield than anything else. Or having the devil's luck/genetic modifications/regenerative nanonmachines.

Also, as the mecha is an object it'd have Hardness in place of energy resistances and DR. It's attacks also probably count as area attacks against normal sized creatures, especially if it's 2 or more size categories larger.
Why the last one? In D&D even the tarrasque's attacks only affect one enemy at a time. In SRW your grungust needs to stomp those lions one at a time instead of blasting several with a single rocket punch.
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veekie
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2010, 02:49:54 PM »

But it'd take the fun out of going godzilla on infantry!

Though the crit issue isn't so bad a problem given that D&D characters are quite resilient.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
oslecamo
Grape ape
*****
Posts: 1940



« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2010, 02:56:57 PM »

But it'd take the fun out of going godzilla on infantry!
Well, we can do like dragons and auto-unlock area attacks as they're bigger.

Huge-trample (just walk over them)
Gargangantuan-crush (walk over them and then pin them!)
Colossal-sweep (affect multiple squares with a single attack)
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Prime32
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2010, 04:14:51 PM »

Seems good.

I'd include fortification with the heavier "armour", so that Real pilots are more likely to die from cockpit damage than Supers.

Wouldn't a mech replace your Str score rather than enhance it? Other than powered armour at least. Might want to give pilots some other use for their Str in that case though.

Special movement data (eg. Gespenst Kick) could be handled through items built into the mech which grant maneuvers.
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My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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