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Author Topic: The Prerequisite and Early Entry Handbook  (Read 11323 times)
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Naldor
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locutus1072
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2010, 12:35:06 PM »

Quote
Skill Point Quickstep?
It's a trick that Doc Roc and I came up with a while back, and I posted over on the Wizards boards in my build to make a level 6 character with the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Here's a summary of how it works:

Ingredients:
•   A casting of Polymorph (scroll, NPC, yourself, etc)
•   The Dusk Giant from Heroes of Horror pg. 147
•   A casting of Psychic Reformation
•   Enough skill points possessed by your character to fulfill all skill pre-requisites.
•   Many, many chickens.  (Perhaps a commoner with the Chicken Infested flaw?  Combine with Leadership for great profit.)
•   A Dragonwrought Kobold, or anything else with the (Dragon) type, since anything with the Dragon type which is old or older gets to take Epic feats if it meets the other pre-reqs.
The Recipe:
1.   Polymorph into a Dusk Giant.  You gain the Extraordinary special attack Cannibalize.  This lets you gain additional, real (not virtual) Hit Dice by consuming other creatures (chickens), up to 24 HD.
2.   As a result of your additional Hit Dice, the max rank limits for various skills increases.
3.   Your friend casts Psychic Reformation to permit you to re-allocate your skills according to your new (higher) HD total.  You can now put up to 27 ranks in a skill, which will be enough for most, but not all Epic feats.
4.   Polymorph expires, you revert to your original form, the extra hit-dice vanish, and you now have skill points allocated (through legal means) in excess of the normal limits.  Note: These are skill points from your permanent HD, not from the ones you temporarily gained as a Dusk Giant.
5.   You get to meet all sorts of feat / skill pre-requisites early.
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NiteCyper
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 01:14:41 PM »

<Dusk Giant's Cannibalize skill trick>
Brilliant! A similar trick I heard is the use of the Bard class's "Inspire Greatness": "A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice..."
However, I feel both tricks would do well with some more self-sufficiency.

Reference(s):
SRD > Bard's Inspire Greatness (Su) class feature - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 04:35:16 PM »

Point is, if you fail on a 1 you can't make further checks for 24 hours, which means you can't take 20 on UMD unless you can activate the item on a 1.
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Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2010, 01:43:14 PM »

Hey, doesn't this belong in the handbooks section?
I might copy it over there once I get all the help I wanted or discussion finishes.

It's hard for me to interpret some of the stuff there.  However, is it possible to get 2 skills with more ranks than allowed per level?  For example, an early Chameleon entry?
Yes, look up the skill requirement and find its correlating answer.

1. Lich and Weretiger Template Classes - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a
2. Fiendish Creature and Werebear Template Classes - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a
3. Half-Fiend and Wereboar Template Classes - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a
4. Half-Dragon and Wererat Template Classes - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a
Yeah I should have included that. I messed up on the warshaper prereqs.
5. Dragon Magazine issue #313 - Strange Bedfellows - page 93 - http://yfrog.com/13d313p93halfdoppelgangerp
6. Dragon Magazine issue #313 - Animal Ancestry - http://yfrog.com/7gd313p22animalancestrypx
Is the bottom one good? LA2 for the former is ew.
Would've added more (like Quasilycanthrope), but for some reason, I hate this thread. Blunt words are used.
The quasilycanthrope page or me (I'm sorry)? Would you like me to change anything?

A similar trick I heard is the use of the Bard class's "Inspire Greatness": "A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice..."
That's already included in the handbook...

I believe I mentioned the dusk giant consumption trick. Since it eats things to buff itself up to NI-infinite feats or skills, I think its on the same par as shambling mound (hp, con, will & fort saves) and consumptive field (CL) silliness.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:56:04 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign » Logged

Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
NiteCyper
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2010, 02:40:18 PM »

1. re: the bottom one: It's Dragon Magazine's (original?) article for the various Were-animal template class progressions. It loads better in Internet Explorer ("IE Tab" Firefox add-on).
2. re: hate: The format.
3. re: E6: optimization of alignment: "Contingent spells(created with the Contingent spell feat that I don't need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy effects like Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the casting of the Word's spells."
4. re: E11: optimization of Taint: Mulhorandi Divine Minion of Sebek, Touch of Benevolence (risky) feat, Gheden Half-undead template(s),
Neither template is LA +0 (they are LA +1).

It seems a Deathtouched isn't half-undead.
As well, upon review, half-undead may not be immune to the consequences of Taint.
Upon further review, I find that I mistook Taint for an effect that targets Evil creatures. Touch of Benevolence shan't help.

Reference(s):
1. The Wish and the Word (3.5e Optimized Character Build) - http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29#Spells_of_Note
2. Dragon Magazine issue #313 > Born of Death - http://yfrog.com/7gd313p61bornofdeathpx
3. Champions of Ruin > Touch of Benevolence feat - http://img36.imageshack.us/i/cor22featshadowstrikent.png/

4. Mulhorandi Pantheon > Sebek - http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sebek & http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mulhorandi_pantheon
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 02:59:31 PM by NiteCyper » Logged

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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2010, 02:58:01 AM »

hate: The format.
3. re: E6: optimization of alignment: "Contingent spells(created with the Contingent spell feat that I don't need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy effects like Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the casting of the Word's spells."
4. re: E11: optimization of Taint: Mulhorandi Divine Minion of Sebek
How would you like to see the format changed. I added red to skill, feats, and Bab which are the most common (besides the entire post dedicated to casting) prereqs. Upon reviewing I think what is organized with what makes quiet a bit of sense...

Ironically I could only tell what you were talking about because you followed the format  Smile

@alignments. They are in the unoptimizable because when you change alignments (character will is usually assumed to make this possible) you either keep PrC abilities based off of it or you don't, depending on how nice your DM is. I personally think 1 subtle alignment change is good RP.

About the divine minion template, I didn't see any mention of it negating corruption or taint....
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
Garryl
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Posts: 1240


« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 09:36:02 PM »

I don't know if it's worth anything, but anyone with 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) or 4 in Knowledge (Religion), and has any item creation feat (preferably, through not necessarily, Craft Wondrous Item) can pick up Ritual Transference as a bonus feat by crafting five Talismans of Transference (500g and 80 xp). If you have an item creation feat, but can't make the talismans yourself, you can always participate in the creation of it using the rules on the very same page.

Similary, Unseelie Court Noble Kelir can be a free feat for anyone with that LA +0 Unseelie Fey template from Dragon that writes it into their backstory.
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General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
NiteCyper
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 09:40:19 PM »

"any alignment subtypes it has changes to match the corresponding alignment subtypes of its deity." Perhaps you need a subtype in the first place, otherwise the MDM template grants it--an evil one at that if Sebek, therefore rendering you immune to the effects of Taint.

re: format: what would I like to see it changed to? Formal. I don't like matchmaking. The effort to change it now as well as the fact that you don't mind it yourself means you shouldn't worry about it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 09:45:25 PM by NiteCyper » Logged

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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2010, 06:30:25 PM »

I don't know if it's worth anything, but anyone with 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) or 4 in Knowledge (Religion), and has any item creation feat (preferably, through not necessarily, Craft Wondrous Item) can pick up Ritual Transference as a bonus feat by crafting five Talismans of Transference (500g and 80 xp). If you have an item creation feat, but can't make the talismans yourself, you can always participate in the creation of it using the rules on the very same page.

Similary, Unseelie Court Noble Kelir can be a free feat for anyone with that LA +0 Unseelie Fey template from Dragon that writes it into their backstory.
Wow. I knew of the first one, but missed the bonus feat part! I might have seen the other one once. Good job. Added but I'm not sure where to stick the cred...

I'll be honest that I didn't catch much of what you were saying about taint. I'm pretty sure with charisma and the undead type, it isn't a problem.
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
Toptomcat
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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2010, 08:25:20 PM »

I may be being somewhat dense here, but the formatting's a bit tough to wade through. What about requirements to be able to cast a specific spell, like Thaumaturgist? It seems like this covers 'able to cast x level arcane spells' pretty nicely, and something nagging at the back of my mind suggests to me that what you've posted here does cover it, but no matter how I re-read I can't quite fathom how.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 02:00:14 AM »

Okay. There are a lot of strange little classes that require one spell or another. Each spell is different and can't follow a general guide like this. However I can add a section on how to address this. The specific steps are:

Check the spell here.
Check my casting class index for classes that cast it, cross-referenced of most every source here for estimating earliest ECL via the thread you are looking at.
Otherwise, abuse extra spell/slot (see my spell-casting section for how to cast 10th level spells so you can gain even that pesky specific 9th level one) or find a way to gain it as an SLA. The latter is more scattered than would ever be worth it to compile.
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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