saints & LA reduction: does this work?

[Waazraath]

Problem:
- to get the saint template from the book of exalted deeds you need to be 6th level minimum
- the template gives +2 LA
- using LA buy-back rules, a +2 LA can be bought off when gaining the 6th level.

As far as I can see, that sucks, cause that means you'll never be able to buy off both the level adjustments of the saint template. RAW, I'm not even sure it's possible to reduce the LA to +1 on level 9.

My solution: taking any +1 LA race, so the total LA gets +3 as soon as the saint template is gained. Buy off can start then at level 9, and at level 18 all three LA can be bought off.

Question: am I right about either the problem or the solution?

Thnx!

[spacemonkey555]

You really just need to read the la buyoff rule, its in the srd, and its very clear. You're eligible to buy off la at certain points, based on the la and your character level, but that's just the earliest point of eligibility. You could buy off 1 level of a +3 la at level 19, or you could buy off a +1 la at level 12. You can definitely buy off saint's +2 even if you pick up saint at level 18. You could pick up saint at 6, wait till 17, then buy off both levels.

[Waazraath]

Mhh, maybe because I'm not a native speaker, but I thought that, since the full sentence reads "Table 1-1: Reducing Level Adjustments gives the levels at which level adjustements are eligible to be reduced for starting level adjustments of +1 to +6", it is implied that only at the levels mentioned in the talbe you are eligible to use this rule.

So I'm mistaken? If that's the case, all the easier since there isn't a problem

[spacemonkey555]

my examples were a bit unclear

Your class levels determine your eligibility for la buyoff. You need 9 class levels to buy off +2 la. You aren't required to have the template and then gain more class levels to earn buyoff, and you don't have to wait a certain # of levels after buying one adjustment off to buy another adjustment if you're eligible for both at your current level.

If you're level 9 and take the saint template, you could immediately buy off both levels, and should since it will only get more expensive.

You could be a stickler for the one line that says you must pay the xp as soon as you become eligible, tho Ive never seen it played that way (outside of char op boards I've never seen anyone with a 20 level build plan lol), but in that case you'd just have to immediately buy off your first level of saint as soon as you take the template, then wait 3 levels and buy off another.

[spacemonkey555]

the rule was written without thinking of templates being added after character creation, the chart is based off a la possessed since level 1.

Go by this, from the srd:

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

So if you're level 8 and you gain a +1 template, you're already eligible. The rules don't say you had to have the la from start, they just don't extrapolate.

[Epimetheus]

Yeah, you can buy it off since you'd already be eligible at lvl 6 to buy off +2 LA.

Wah..., buying off the already overpowered Saint Template? 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Of course, you can't buy anything if that saint comes with VoP.

[geniussavant]

Of course, you can't buy anything if that saint comes with VoP.

I guess you would just have to donate the LA to someone else.   

[McPoyo]

Of course, you can't buy anything if that saint comes with VoP.

I guess you would just have to donate the LA to someone else.   

And...this is now a BBEG in a campaign. Donating LA to other people to permanently stunt their growth so they can never rise to challenge him...

[Epimetheus]

VoP Saint as BBEG. It could work out. Take Apostle of Peace (Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace). Use 'peaceful' methods under your LG standards in order to quell any potential uprising evil people aka adventurers, since they cause the most trouble and always get super rowdy. Especially those batman wizards and CoDzillas. Better kill them offstunt their growth before it's too late. Because we're good, and we're right.

I. AM. JUSTICE! 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

waazrath you are right about both the problem and the solution.

monkey number guy is using the "it doesn't say you can't" argument. The rules only say you are eligible to reduce specific LAs at specific levels. It does not say that eligibility continues after those levels for those LA tiers. He would need a rules quote to back up that interpretation. Unfortunately such a quote doesn't exist.

PS. your English is just fine  . I can see you have a solid, literal way to interpret the language. That will serve you quite well for DnD.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

waazrath you are right about both the problem and the solution.

monkey number guy is using the "it doesn't say you can't" argument. The rules only say you are eligible to reduce specific LAs at specific levels. It does not say that eligibility continues after those levels for those LA tiers. He would need a rules quote to back up that interpretation. Unfortunately such a quote doesn't exist.

PS. your English is just fine  . I can see you have a solid, literal way to interpret the language. That will serve you quite well for DnD.

Well, eligibility defaults not to going away when you're above a certain level.  Otherwise you'd never be able to power attack with strength 14.

That said, the "Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1" language would mean that, yes, you could buy it off... at level 12.

The way the rules are set up appears to be "you have a new level adjustment.  Multiply it by 3.  That many levels later, reduce your LA by one.  You have a new level adjustment (in this case, oldLA-1) Multiply it by 3.  That many levels later, reduce your LA by one.  "

[wotmaniac]

waazrath you are right about both the problem and the solution.

monkey number guy is using the "it doesn't say you can't" argument. The rules only say you are eligible to reduce specific LAs at specific levels. It does not say that eligibility continues after those levels for those LA tiers. He would need a rules quote to back up that interpretation. Unfortunately such a quote doesn't exist.

PS. your English is just fine  . I can see you have a solid, literal way to interpret the language. That will serve you quite well for DnD.

Well, eligibility defaults not to going away when you're above a certain level.  Otherwise you'd never be able to power attack with strength 14.

That said, the "Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1" language would mean that, yes, you could buy it off... at level 12.

The way the rules are set up appears to be "you have a new level adjustment.  Multiply it by 3.  That many levels later, reduce your LA by one.  You have a new level adjustment (in this case, oldLA-1) Multiply it by 3.  That many levels later, reduce your LA by one.  "

+1  @ TML

however, I'm gonna split hairs for a minute (to get out ahead of any would-be contrarians):
a stricter analogy would be something like weapon specialization.
as for stuff like power attack, dodge, etc., it would still be good because of the specific verbiage in the feat format description at the very top of PHB p.89.  (it specifically states "minimum" for each element but "class level", in which case the word "minimum" seems to have been omitted).


P.S.
I'm just bored at this point, and am probably over-due for sleep.  (turns out that compulsively talking 'til I get too tired to talk translates to typing on a forum as well  )