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Author Topic: Dweomerkeeper  (Read 6224 times)
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Sobolev
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« on: September 25, 2010, 07:41:25 PM »

So, I've recently decided I should theorycraft a Dweomerkeeper.

Rules are Persistent Spell is banned.  That's pretty much it.  Wizards books allowed.  Character will be leveled from some level between 1 and 5 to the end, so some playability at low levels is necessary.

The story thus far:
Race: Human, Feat Halfling, Whisper Gnome?

Classes:
Dweomerkeeper 10/Cleric X/Other X

Also to fulfill the requirement for Arcane spells I need either Wizard 1 (I figure this is better than Sorc for Abrupt Jaunt) or the feat Magical Training.  If I go the Wizard route I think I can get Customize Domain (Dragon Magazine somewhere) and edit my Magic domain to include some Wizard stuff.  I could then get Spontaneous Domains and spontaneous some awesome stuff maybe.  However, Magical Training is the same effort (1 feat) and saves me a level in a useless class (other than Jaunt and maybe Grease/Mist/something).

More to be posted later.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 10:52:37 PM »

Well if you will only hit level 5 you can never even enter Dweomerkeeper.
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 10:58:40 PM »

Well if you will only hit level 5 you can never even enter Dweomerkeeper.
He means the campaign starts at level 1d5
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Sobolev
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 11:33:25 PM »

Well if you will only hit level 5 you can never even enter Dweomerkeeper.
He means the campaign starts at level 1d5

I sure do.

Strongheart Halfling Clositered Cleric
Time/Magic/Knowledge

32 Point Buy of some sort such as
Str 8 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 14
with Mods
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 14

Or if I take 1 level of Wizard
Str 8 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 12
with racial Mods
Str 6 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 12

In either case may reduce my charisma to make my strength able to support my own body weight.  I love turn attempts but I don't know if this character is really calling for them, so it might need to take a dive.

Trade Knowledge for Divine Magician.
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Detect Thoughts
3rd: Anticipate Teleportation
4th: Enervation
5th: Magic Jar
6th: Eye of Stone
7th: Wave of Exhaustion
8th: Mind Blank
9th: Maw of Chaos

Feats:
Improved Initiative (Domain Bonus)
Extend Spell (1st Level)
Magical Training (Racial Bonus)

Skills:
Knowledge (Local): 2 (For Magical Training)

ACF to Spontaneous Time or Magic whichever is better.  Time could be Planning instead if those spells are better, haven't had time to check yet.  Pick up Yondalla's Blessing and an item creation feat at some point.  Blessing will give me a silly init hopefully.

I'm considering alternately getting Wizard 1 for Abrupt Jaunt and the free Scribe Scroll feat (which fulfills some requirements) but I haven't decided.  Not all first level wizard spells are terrible either.  Would give me additional Obscuring Mist, access to Grease and Nerveskitter.

More still to be posted later, as I have time to hammer more out.  Still have no idea what the 20 level build will be.  Also considered the Pride domain and a few others.

Level 1 Wizard spells to be used in armor assuming I take Wizard, but don't take Cloistered:
Hold Portal, Power Word: Fatigue, Feather Fall

Level 1 Wizard spells to take if I'm Cloistered/not worried about Armor.
Mage Armor, Grease, Nerveskitter, Obscuring Mist
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 12:28:20 AM by Sobolev » Logged

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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
Echoes
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2010, 05:59:13 AM »

Can you be a Cleric of Mystra? If so, Initiate of Mystra > Magical Training or a Wizard dip for Dweomerkeeper qualification.

Other than that, seems like you have a solid plan. Since Persistent Spell is out, I'd recommend Divine Spell Power. Add a bead of karma and an ankh of ascension, and you're looking at +12 CL when you need it. Makes holy word a OHKO against any equal-level enemies. Alternatively, if DMM is still allowed, DMM: Quicken is pretty potent.

As to Domains, Pride rocks. The spells are pretty meh, but the domain power is amazing. Planning is ok if you need Extend Spell, but otherwise the spells suck except for time stop. Spontaneous Domain Casting Planning is useful way late, but Time would give you the same thing with better spells along the way so do that. As to how to finish it out, that's a pretty good question. If you go the Mystra route, Hathran is always nice and the flavor really fits. Divine Oracle 2 is pretty solid, and Paragnostic Apostle works in just about any Cleric build.
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BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
Sobolev
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Posts: 742



« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 11:30:51 AM »

Can you be a Cleric of Mystra? If so, Initiate of Mystra > Magical Training or a Wizard dip for Dweomerkeeper qualification.

Other than that, seems like you have a solid plan. Since Persistent Spell is out, I'd recommend Divine Spell Power. Add a bead of karma and an ankh of ascension, and you're looking at +12 CL when you need it. Makes holy word a OHKO against any equal-level enemies. Alternatively, if DMM is still allowed, DMM: Quicken is pretty potent.

As to Domains, Pride rocks. The spells are pretty meh, but the domain power is amazing. Planning is ok if you need Extend Spell, but otherwise the spells suck except for time stop. Spontaneous Domain Casting Planning is useful way late, but Time would give you the same thing with better spells along the way so do that. As to how to finish it out, that's a pretty good question. If you go the Mystra route, Hathran is always nice and the flavor really fits. Divine Oracle 2 is pretty solid, and Paragnostic Apostle works in just about any Cleric build.

I don't think Initiate of Mystra works.  It adds spells to your spell list, and while some of them are often arcane spells you don't actually cast them as arcane spells (Unless I'm missing something).  I've been playing a game with DSP lately and I've been very pleased with it thus far.  DMM is still allowed so that's something to consider. 

Will edit with more later.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
Lo77o
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 01:16:02 PM »

I think he mentioned initate of mystra... Since it lets you cast spells in antimagic and deadmagic zones.
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Emy
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 02:31:25 PM »

I don't think Initiate of Mystra works.  It adds spells to your spell list, and while some of them are often arcane spells you don't actually cast them as arcane spells (Unless I'm missing something).  I've been playing a game with DSP lately and I've been very pleased with it thus far.  DMM is still allowed so that's something to consider. 

Will edit with more later.

Initiate of Mystra isn't for qualification, it's just for awesomeness.

Magical Training feat or a Wizard dip is what lets you qualify. Magical Training gives you arcane cantrips that you cast just like a sorcerer or wizard.
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Sobolev
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Posts: 742



« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »

Can you be a Cleric of Mystra? If so, Initiate of Mystra > Magical Training or a Wizard dip for Dweomerkeeper qualification.

Ah, okay, was thrown by this sentence.

What do the people think, Cloistered or Armor?  Also thoughts on Wizard Dip vs Magical Training?  Thoughts on point buy?  I'm considering just going human as well, depends on whether I really want Blessing or not I suppose.  I just picked Time to get Improved Init to go with my Blessing for foolishness.  I'm open to suggestions on a second domain as well.  Magic domain is required however, for the prestige class.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
Echoes
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Posts: 476



« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 08:08:54 PM »

No, you're taking Initiate of Mystra to snag anyspell as an actual Cleric spell rather than a domain spell. Anyspell lets you prepare and cast arcane spells from your Cleric spell slots, and these spells specifically remain arcane spells, thus fulfilling the requirement for dweomerkeeper. The other benefits of the feat are just gravy.
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BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
saethone
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2010, 12:47:14 AM »

No, you're taking Initiate of Mystra to snag anyspell as an actual Cleric spell rather than a domain spell. Anyspell lets you prepare and cast arcane spells from your Cleric spell slots, and these spells specifically remain arcane spells, thus fulfilling the requirement for dweomerkeeper. The other benefits of the feat are just gravy.

This. Also, armored or cloistered will depend on party makeup. You're not as ridiculously overpowered in melee without persistent spell, but you can still be quite potent if you can DMM Quicken some buffs in the first couple rounds of combat. However, if your party is meatshield heavy you might as well go cloistered for the skill points and maybe throw some knowledge devotion fun in.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2010, 01:01:54 AM »

No, you're taking Initiate of Mystra to snag anyspell as an actual Cleric spell rather than a domain spell. Anyspell lets you prepare and cast arcane spells from your Clericdomain spell slots, and these spells specifically remain arcane spells, thus fulfilling the requirement for dweomerkeeper. The other benefits of the feat are just gravy.
Small but crucial fix.
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Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.
Sobolev
Donkey Kong
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Posts: 742



« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 01:22:56 AM »

Unfortunately, Mystra doesn't provide the sweetness of Time.  It even has Haste!  If she has a decent other domain that would be reasonable I assume.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
betrayor
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 06:57:31 AM »

Unfortunately, Mystra doesn't provide the sweetness of Time.  It even has Haste!  If she has a decent other domain that would be reasonable I assume.

If you could take heretic of the faith you would solve that problem as this feat lets you amongst other things to exchange a domain with another one that your god does not have normally access to....
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Sobolev
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Posts: 742



« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 09:15:25 AM »

Unfortunately, Mystra doesn't provide the sweetness of Time.  It even has Haste!  If she has a decent other domain that would be reasonable I assume.

If you could take heretic of the faith you would solve that problem as this feat lets you amongst other things to exchange a domain with another one that your god does not have normally access to....

Good thought.  If Mystra has another decent domain though it won't be necessary.  I'll need to look in to that .
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
Echoes
Bi-Curious George
****
Posts: 476



« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 02:16:34 PM »

No, you're taking Initiate of Mystra to snag anyspell as an actual Cleric spell rather than a domain spell. Anyspell lets you prepare and cast arcane spells from your Clericdomain spell slots, and these spells specifically remain arcane spells, thus fulfilling the requirement for dweomerkeeper. The other benefits of the feat are just gravy.
Small but crucial fix.

Uh, no. Go read Initiate of Mystra - it specifically makes them regular Cleric spells, letting you use regular spell slots rather than domain slots.

Of course, it's irrelevant anyway, since all dweomerkeeper asks is that you can cast arcane spells, which you can still do.
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BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
The_Mad_Linguist
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 8780


Simulated Thing


« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 02:22:11 PM »

Yeah, but anyspell doesn't really care how you're casting it.  It's altering your domain slot regardless of what you do.
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Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.
Sobolev
Donkey Kong
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Posts: 742



« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 03:08:22 PM »

Two very rough sketched out builds (made in class without the help of actual books) one using Cleric and Initiate of Mystra, another using Cloistered Cleric and a level of Wizard.  I blame errors in the build on my not having books/building from memory.

Human Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Paragnostic Apostle 5
Time and Magic domains
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 14
Spontaneous Domain: Time
Improved Initiative (Domain Bonus)
Scribe Scroll (1st Level)
Extend Spell (Human Bonus)
3rd: Initiate of Mystra
6th Heretic of Faith
9th: Quicken Spell
12th: Divine Metamagic: Quicken
15th: Extra Turning?
18th: Planar Touchstone?
Mantle of Spells

This build is a lot of work, and I'm not even sure it will work, based on when I need things.  I need a metamagic, an item creation and Mystra as soon as possible but need Heretic to get Time in order to get Spontaneous (Unless my DM lets me work that a little funky).  It just leaves me a little funky.  I like heavy armor though.

Raptoran Cloistered Cleric 2/Wizard 1/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/Contemplative 1/Paragnostic Apostle 4
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 10
Time/Magic/Some Other Good Domain (Travel?)

Trade Knowledge for Divine Magician
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: Detect Thoughts
3rd: Anticipate Teleportation
4th: Enervation
5th: Magic Jar
6th: Eye of Stone
7th: Wave of Exhaustion
8th: Mind Blank
9th: Maw of Chaos

Spontaneous Domain: Time
Abrupt Jaunt (Turn in Familiar)

Improved Initiative (Domain Bonus)
Scribe Scroll (Wizard Bonus)
Knowledge Devotion (Trade in Inquisition Domain)

Other feats? (just guesses)
Flyby Attack, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Divine Spellpower, Divine Metamagic, Extra Turning, Planar Touchstone, Customize Domain

Help with Mantle of Spells, Feats, other ideas?  I still need to build an armored cleric who qualifies with Wizard, an armored cleric who qualifies with Magical Training, and an unarmored cleric who qualifies with Magical Training and Mystra (Though this will likely encounter the same problem as the build before did, unless I decide against Spontaneous Time or push back Dweomerkeeper 1 level, which I suppose would be fine)

I like the second build a bit better on the surface but I miss armor, armor is good.

Some ideas I had for Mantle of Spells included:
Shivering Touch, Delay Death/Revivify/Something to this effect, Magic Jar, Anticipate Teleportation, ?

I really am just throwing darts at a wall and hoping something sticks.  Someone come save me! Thanks =D
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 03:12:54 PM by Sobolev » Logged

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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.
archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2010, 03:09:56 PM »

Well if you will only hit level 5 you can never even enter Dweomerkeeper.
He means the campaign starts at level 1d5
Never heard of this setup before but ok. Seems like enough advice has been given already.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2010, 02:29:40 AM »

Why Cleric as opposed to Archivist+Contemplative?  Or is your goal to also be an Initiate of Mystra?
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