OOC discussion

[Tshern]

Introduction

This is the Iron Siege, which I dare to call one of the most difficult D&D challenges that should according to the CR system and common sense be totally possible. However, so far we have had no succesful tries at this during the reigns of Selah, Witch and me who are the only DMs of this gauntlet so far. Already at this point I want to note that this is by no means a sensible challenge, so please do not post here simply to rant about how stupid we must be to do this, a lot of people have done a great deal of work for this and their efforts are not to be insulted. Thanks.

What is the Iron Siege?

The sole purpose of this challenge is to kill the Archduke of Dis, Lord Dispater. If it was this simple it would hardly be a challenge, so here are the main catches:

• You need to kill him as the Dicefreaks present him here.
• You must do it in Dis.

To give a little run down, he is greatly amped and he lives within his own safe haven, the Iron Tower. The rules are relatively simple:

• No theoretical builds like Pun-Pun.
• All builds must be clarified by me.
• You start at the gates of Dis, right past Tiamat's lair, but you are allowed to do all necessary preparations before the challenge starts. That includes casting buffs, creating epic spells and such.
• You need to kill Dispater, incapacitating is not enough. He has Contingent true resurrection active and that needs to be taken care of as well.
• You are subject to the following HD limitations (including class levels): Mortals 40HD, Outsiders/Deities 70HD, pretty much everything else 100HD. Ask for more details.
• You are allowed to use a party of four members and you have a pool of 18 divine ranks to draw from.
• Deity creation rules as per The Gates of Hell, Chapter 9.

The list of sources is as follows:

• The SRD
• Complete series
• Libris Mortis
• The Gates of Hell
• Player's Handbook II
• Heroes of Horror
• Sandstorm
• Frostburn
• You may ask for more

Here are some additional links:

The Iron Siege discussion at WotC's Character Optimization board
The Iron Siege discussion at WotC's former Epic boards
Witch's Iron Siege discussion at WotC's former Epic boards
Same as the last one, but the page on which I took over
Iron Siege attemps under my run
_Darhath_'s Iron Siege FAQ
My first playtest

You still think you can take it? Interested in this on any level? Post here!

[Tshern]

Reserved.

[Tshern]

Reserved 2.

Feel free to post now.

[AfterCrescent]

I recall a poster over on the CO boards that had compiled an FAQ on things that you've allowed/disallowed. Are you going to port that over for simplicity's sake?

[Tshern]

You recall correctly and I have already posted a link to _Darhath_'s FAQ in the last spoiler block of my first post. We used to have a compilation of allowed epic spells and SDAs as well, but the user who maintained it removed the content of his posts in a seemingly angry manner. I am yet to find out why that happened.

[carnivore]

"every post needs Flavor text" .... that looks like it was aimed at me 

fine ... i can do that  :-\


 

[Tshern]

That's the way it has been handled every time. I am very unsatisfied with the way deathwishjoe posts at WotC. Flavorwise, other parts have been fine.

[Akula]

Okay, a build that should crank out 21 epic spells per day and reach high caster levels:

Bard 2/Wizard 5/Full casting PrCs 3/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 2/Divine Oracle 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Void Incarnate 10/Uncany Trickster 3(advancing Ultimate Magus)/8 levels and 5 LA of whatever you want.

There are two tricks in this build which give it most of its power. I will elaborate on them below.

1) Sublime Chord gives us the ability to crank Caster Level into the stratosphere, because it adds the original CL of your other classes to its CL and adds its CL to the caster level of your other classes. Obviously this allows for happy-funtime CL when you get two dual advancing classes put into the mix, in short you can gain more then you lose.

2) Rainbow Servant allows you to cast divine spells as divine spells. This can get you in to a number of fun PrCs, including Mystic Theurge, which goes well with trick number one. It also allows the most painless qualification for Void Incarnate throught the Contemplative and the Divine Oracle PrCs. It also gets us Epic Spellcasting crazyness from having Divine and Arcane spells. More Epic Spells=Better.

Overall this is just a build that has been kicking around in my head, I don't really think that I'm going to attempt this challenge, but maybe this will give some other people ideas. Last time it certainly did.

[carnivore]

Okay, a build that should crank out 21 epic spells per day and reach high caster levels:

Bard 2/Wizard 5/Full casting PrCs 3/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 2/Divine Oracle 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Void Incarnate 10/Uncany Trickster 3(advancing Ultimate Magus)/8 levels and 5 LA of whatever you want.

There are two tricks in this build which give it most of its power. I will elaborate on them below.

1) Sublime Chord gives us the ability to crank Caster Level into the stratosphere, because it adds the original CL of your other classes to its CL and adds its CL to the caster level of your other classes. Obviously this allows for happy-funtime CL when you get two dual advancing classes put into the mix, in short you can gain more then you lose.

2) Rainbow Servant allows you to cast divine spells as divine spells. This can get you in to a number of fun PrCs, including Mystic Theurge, which goes well with trick number one. It also allows the most painless qualification for Void Incarnate throught the Contemplative and the Divine Oracle PrCs. It also gets us Epic Spellcasting crazyness from having Divine and Arcane spells. More Epic Spells=Better.

Overall this is just a build that has been kicking around in my head, I don't really think that I'm going to attempt this challenge, but maybe this will give some other people ideas. Last time it certainly did.

depending on how it is ruled ....IIRC, Sublime Chord specifies Class levels of previous Spell Casting classes, not Caster level... so you may not gain as much as you think........ although Void Incarnate does have some useful abilities.... some of its abilities are useless against Dispater and some of his Minions(Merorem).. since they are Abominations, and are immune to mind Affecting Effects

 

[Tshern]

Akula: Some thoughts about your stuff:
-Remember that Rainbow Servant is 6/10 casting class as per the rulings of the Sage.
-Not sure what you are doing with Uncanny Trickster, but if you think of advancing Ultimate Magus' spellcasting progression with it, you would have to do an epic version of the UM, which again is subject to my approval.
-Carnivore's right about the Sublime Chord.
-Void Incarnate's ability restriction disqualifies you from Prestige Paladin.
-I can't see how you are getting Evasion to that build.

[Akula]

-I thought the Sage was about as official as a houserule from you or me but I'm fine with that. I was going by text trumps table though.
-Ultimate Magus states that it progresses both sides of the CL on "each level but 1, ect" as such it seemed to be a legal target for Uncanny Trickster.
-Fine if that's the way you rule that route obviously isn't worth following up on, this is why I have to post this stuff.
-That was more thrown on to get Cha to saves then for any other reason.
-Prescient Sense from Divine Oracle could qualify you. I had seen some builds work off of that assumption so I went with is.

In summary, the Sublime Chord trick won't work. However I think that Rainbow Servant is still a nice way to open up options for an arcane build. At the very least you get three times more Epic Spells for 4 caster levels.

[Tshern]

-You have something better than that? It's a 6/10 class in all other translations, so I simply disregard the English one as a typo. Losing four caster levels isn't that bad at levels this high, as you can simply take Practiced spellcaster and never see the difference as you don't get more spell slots anyway.
-Epic one too?
-I think he has a point. Do you want to elaborate a bit further with your view? I can change my opinion.
-I see and understand. Paladin of Freedom would work, but it loses caster levels...
-Yep, it could. Not here though.

[Akula]

-Nope, heard a rumor that one of the foreign language versions had 10/10 spellcasting but I have never seen the book. It remains a rumor only.
-No official Epic Progression as far as I know, this is one of those "every level" or "every other level" things that people go back and forth about advancing with Legacy Champion of Uncanny Trickster.
-I think he does too, I jumped the gun; thought it said Caster Levels when it said Class levels. There is likely still a way to use it to get more CL then normal but simple +CL classes wouldn't do it.
-Not to mention kicking you right out of Rainbow Servant...Guess you need to take Primordial Scion.
-Understood, now you need levels in monk to qualify. Maybe I've become too wedded to that class, in my opinion it is the only epic PrC that actually feels "epic."

Rainbow Servant looks like a neat option still. At the very least you can use it to get into some nice PrCs and get more Epic Spells.

[carnivore]

i agree that "Prescient Sense" qualifies for Evasion... since Evasion is not the Rogue or Monk ability, but rather the ability to avoid damage... notice:

EVASION AND IMPROVED EVASION
These extraordinary abilities allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way. Rogues and monks have evasion and improved evasion as class features, but certain other creatures have these abilities, too.

If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.

Improved evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

so in actuality, Rogues and Monks only have a "Form" of evasion... since they dont  have it when : Encumbered or when wearing Armor .... if Prescient Sense will allow you to avoid area damage with a Reflex save.. then it qualifies as EVASION


 

[Tshern]

I strongly disagree. For example, if you ran into an antimagic field, you wouldn't lose the benefits of your prestige classes even if they require spellcasting and you cannot conjure a single spell in the antimagic field.

i agree that "Prescient Sense" qualifies for Evasion... since Evasion is not the Rogue or Monk ability, but rather the ability to avoid damage... notice:

Not true. Look at the passage I bolded in the following quote:

These extraordinary abilities allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way. Rogues and monks have evasion and improved evasion as class features, but certain other creatures have these abilities, too.

For more information, look at the following.

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

So clearly Evasion and Improved evasion are not only abilities to avoid damage and nothing in your quote even supports that interpretation. I don't see how did you come to the solution you presented, but I do not agree with it. Prescient sense doesn't fulfill the Evasion prerequisite of Void Incarnate unless you have some actual evidence.

[carnivore]

Prescient Sense itself says it is a Form of Evasion... but one that CAN be used with Armor... and also is unaffected by an Antimagic field

Void Incarnate requires "Evasion Class feature" .... which Prescience Sense is... but you are free to rule how ever you like

 

[Tshern]

So it does. I didn't spot that on my first read. Then it qualifies.

[Tshern]

Double post, but hey, sue me! I just thought to inform that yet another challenger has fallen before the might of the Iron Lord...

[SixthDeclension]

I am showing preliminary interest. It will take me a very long time to make a character though.

And was that a Drowning Pool reference in the game thread?

[Tshern]

Of course it was. Good luck with your character.