Another guy with delusions of grandeur about making a system.

[X-Codes]

I was excited about 4e when it first came out, since, after all, my Paladins would be mechanically awesome again.  After a couple 4e campaigns I got a little disillusioned with it, but wasn't able to put much thought into it because I was about to enter into an asskicking new college semester.  Then the summer came and I wanted to get back into 4e, but lo and behold!  Carpet nuclear nerfing has made pretty much all of my characters something between mediocre and lame, and the new supplements that the WotC factory is pumping out are utterly and completely unappealing, and the way the game is designed it's incredibly difficult to put together much in the way of custom game material for it.

Since I was decidedly not going to play 4e anymore, I'd have to get my RPing fix from the 3.5e system.  Considered Pathfinder, but I'm not too excited about it.  I really just don't see Pathfinder doing that much with the system at all, really.  Clerics and Wizards, IMO, are still huge powerhouses while Fighters and Paladins are still more or less the same (if maybe bumped up to tiers 4 or even 3).

Now that I'm following/joined up with a game on these boards, I'm seeing what kind of cool ideas there are out there like the stuff on the Dreamscarred Press SRD and just about everything Races of War.  Further, while 4e does, by and large, suck, there are a few good ideas in there, and I'd like to bring those in as well. (I've actually put together the framework of a new skill list already, using the 3.5e skill system.)

That said, problem number 1 is the Wizard.  I don't want to get rid of full casters/full manifesters, but the game pretty much needs them to be toned down.  For that, I'm looking for help and input, starting with this idea: No 9th-level spells.  Hell, no 8th-level spells, either.  There are more of these spells that cause these Tier 1/Tier 2-level of problems then there are that don't, so I'd rather pick a few level 8's, stick them in as level 7 spells, and just get rid of the rest.  Here's the breakdown of what I'm thinking for a basic progression:

Level |	Pure |	Hybrid
1	1	2
2	3	5
3	6	9
4	9	13
5	12	17
6	15	--
7	18	--

The Level column is the level of spells/powers known, the Pure column is for pure casters/manifesters (Wizard/Psion/Sorcerer/etc.), and the Hybrid column is for hybrid casters/manifesters (Bard/Psywar/Paladin/etc.).  The numbers in the table itself are the levels at which said powers are obtained.
Casters have cantrips/orisons, Manifesters don't, so hybrid manifesters will basically have 1 power known and only bonus PP at first level while hybrid casters will simply have cantrips.

Hybrid classes will also have one or two class abilities that also get advanced when you pick up +1 level progression, similar to how Warlocks get their eldritch blast advanced when they get +1 level, or how DSP put out rules allowing Soulknives to increase the potency of their mind blades alongside a manifesting class when they get +1 level progression.  This way there will be a reason to progress hybrid casting with +1 level progression classes outside of when you need so many levels in the class that it's just not practical to dip.

There won't be any base classes that deviate from this.  Sorcerers and Wizards both get 2nd level spells at their 3rd class level, the difference being that the Wizard will be able to cast 2-3 different spells once each per day while the Sorcerer casts the same spell 3-4 times the same day.  This is, again, mostly about making all the casting classes, including the hybrid ones, viable picks for +1 level progression PrCs.

So here's what I'm bringing this up for: I'm looking for input on the finer details of implementing this idea.  Obvious things are that a number of blasty-type spells will likely need their caps increased (3rd-level spells going to 15 dice, 5th-level spells going to 20 dice, 7th-level spells going to 25 dice), and the fact that most Powers have built-in baseline effects that will need to be adjusted to match their new PP costs.  That stuff is relatively easy.

Less obvious are ideas to combat lower-level problem effects on the design level, as opposed to dealing with it as a DM (in the extremely unlikely chance that someone else would actually use my system).  Stuff such as temporal acceleration novas (novae?), scry-and-die tactics, polymorph shenanigans, and just about everything that has an XP or GP cost to it.  What else needs to be done to fit these classes into a nice, tidy Tier 3 package?

[raith0]

another option is to let some one else do all that work i posted a rewrite of all players handbook classes and spells and feats and skills.   its still in the play testing stage but is stable and may be what you are looking for.

[X-Codes]

Honestly, I find very few things I like with your system.  I feel that some changes in it are unwarranted, some go too far, and others don't go far enough.  For example, I don't see any incorporation of Combat feats in your system, something that I'm a huge fan of and intending to expand on in my own.  You don't do anything with races or ECL, either, which is something that I feel takes away some interesting character options.

[raith0]

Honestly, I find very few things I like with your system.  I feel that some changes in it are unwarranted, some go too far, and others don't go far enough.  For example, I don't see any incorporation of Combat feats in your system, something that I'm a huge fan of and intending to expand on in my own.  You don't do anything with races or ECL, either, which is something that I feel takes away some interesting character options.

what kind of combat feats are you talking about.  things like trip and disarm were rolled into a new system.

[X-Codes]

Oh, Tome feats.

[PhaedrusXY]

Hmm... on the one hand, this sure as hell would make things more balanced (or at least easier to deal with). On the other hand... I'm not sure it's going to still feel like D&D without all those insanely powerful 9th level effects. I guess you could say they're "Epic" spells, and leave them in the game in that form. That way if someone still wants them around for whatever, they can have them.

As for what to do with Polymorph and it's brethren, I rather like my versions, which you may or may not have looked through here (at the bottom of that post). I don't like the total character replacement versions that F&K and the "polymorph subschool" seems to go with, but I also agree that the originals are totally broken as hell. So mine goes for something in the middle. Instead of replacing your stats with the monster's, you instead just gain their racial modifiers. You also don't gain all the Ex and Su crap, at all.

I also gave all of them a range of "touch", so overall you're actually better off buffing the party fighter with them instead of going super-saiyan yourself.

Finally, I upgraded all of their durations to 10 min/lvl, because I like that duration for buffs.

[X-Codes]

Well, the alternative to removing the 9th level effects while still balancing the game a bit is bringing up everything to Tier 2 (minimum) power.  That will be really hard if you want melee characters to still feel like melee characters.  There's still some ridiculous/fun stuff in the game at 7th level, too, like Blasphemy, Anti-Magic Field, Limited Wish, Control Weather, and Reverse Gravity.

That said, keeping in the 8th- and 9th-level spells as epic spells isn't a bad idea.  Another option is to put in some kind of ritual system where you spend somewhere between 10 minutes and 1 hour with the entire party casting the really powerful spells like Planar Binding, Gate, Miracle, etc.  I think the latter would be quite a lot to do, though.

As for Polymorph-style spells, I was thinking of going a slightly different path myself.  Instead of having the generic Polymorph spells, I'd have specific spells for each form.  A good example might be Aspect of the Icy Hunter in Complete Mage.  I'd probably have something like that spell as a 3rd-level spell (possibly 2nd-level) instead of a 4th-level spell, as well as spells like it for other popular monsters like Hellhounds, Trolls, Dragons, Hydras, etc.

[RobbyPants]

All in all, I like it.  This is actually very similar to ideas I've had about capping the game at 15th level, which would cap full casters at 7th level spells (assuming they all cast like beguilers/dread necros and not as wizards).  It also caps bards at 5th level spells.  So I'm with you that far.  That being said:

Less obvious are ideas to combat lower-level problem effects on the design level, as opposed to dealing with it as a DM (in the extremely unlikely chance that someone else would actually use my system).  Stuff such as temporal acceleration novas (novae?), scry-and-die tactics, polymorph shenanigans, and just about everything that has an XP or GP cost to it.  What else needs to be done to fit these classes into a nice, tidy Tier 3 package?

Scry & Die
The Tome rules have an interesting take on this.  The basic fix is any longer-than-long range teleport spells and Scry are thwarted by 40 or more feet of solid material.  The idea is that is the rationale for building dungeons.  It's supposed to give a relative safe-haven for people to prevent Scry & Die.  Of course, there's nothing to prevent the party from teleporting to the doorstep, but that's okay.

Anyway, that's one logical approach, with it's own limitations.  Obviously, people not sequestered in dungeons are still vulnerable.


Polymorph
The specific spell per creature approach is a good one, but it takes a lot of work.

Another option is to make it into a morphable buff (such as CL boost split however among Str, Dex, Con, and NA as an enhancement bonus, no more than 6 points in an ability score or 5 points in NA).

Frank & K advocated a "replacement" mechanic, where you pick a monster of CR no more than your CL - 3, and you replace your stats with the monster's stats, but keep your own alignment, personality, and goals (and mental stats?).  Any damage taken while polymorphed is applied to you when the spell ends.  So, if your new form has more HP than you, be careful.


XP/GP costs
Personally, I'd say drop all cheap components, keep the expensive components, and drop the XP costs.  You can see if you want to replace an XP cost with an expensive component on a spell by spell basis if you want, but there's no reason to keep XP costs unless you change how XP works.  If you dole out XP the way the DMG tells you to, XP costs either do nothing, or they're an investment that actually gives you a net gain after one session.  They're a bad idea and they don't do what the designers think they do.

[veekie]

I favor the morphic buff version of Polymorph, with specific creature morph if you want to get a really esoteric ability(i.e. the specific version is more efficient, but inflexible).

For scry and die, I think one thing that can be done is to firstly, more strictly enforce the need for a focus to scry/teleport properly at all, and limit teleportation outside of combat ranges(long range at maximum) to use 'hyperspace' type travel like Shadow Walk.

XP and GP costs though, I favor removing spells containing either entirely, and only allow gp components for spells with permanent benefits(in which case they are treated as equipment out of your ECL and should be replaced if destroyed)