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Author Topic: Vow of Poverty  (Read 13538 times)
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 12:51:08 PM »

Warlocks use infernal powers, but can be CG. If for some reason a warlock took sacred vows, would using his invocations be considered evil? No it wouldn't. DCFS is fine here.
To be fair, they do state that warlock abilities can come from other sources, like fey, slaadi, and the like.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 01:28:05 PM »

You might be able to cheese the feats into something awesome by being a human and going dragonborn, due to how dragonborn handles losing a racial bonus feat.
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« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 01:41:55 PM »

Warlocks use infernal powers, but can be CG. If for some reason a warlock took sacred vows, would using his invocations be considered evil? No it wouldn't. DCFS is fine here.

It's up to the DM. The high moral standards of exalted characters are not well defined but how easy it is to fail them is harped on, and deliberately filling yourself with power from the Abyss to turn your Exalted feats into Abyssal Heritor feats seems like something that will very easily fall on the problematic side.
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Inari1991
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« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 01:53:20 PM »

So would it be bad for a druid to take Vow of Poverty?  I remember hearing way back that it was only really good for druids.  Would taking it hurt my druid too much or would it work due to druids being kick ass?
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snakeman830
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« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 02:06:26 PM »

So would it be bad for a druid to take Vow of Poverty?  I remember hearing way back that it was only really good for druids.  Would taking it hurt my druid too much or would it work due to druids being kick ass?
It would work pretty well because Druids are already very gear-independant and can use their class features to take care of the shortcomings of VoP.

Now, in most games it's a terrible idea for a Wizard to take VoP, but that's another deal altogether.
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« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 02:07:02 PM »

Interesting question related to my doppleganger idea. A doppleganger can change shape into any medium or small humanoid.  I can't pick templates.  Do I *have* to pick an exisiting race?  Can I mix and match traits?  It would be awesome to change shape into an orc but have Raptoran wings.

My idea for the character includes being a warshaper and a bear warrior only reflavoring the bear to being more of a monsterous war form.  The taking Fist of the Forest and VoP at level 18 for a serious power boost.  The only think I wouldn't be able to do is fly...  unless I can use the bear form and the warshaping dopplegangerness to give myself wings.  It's not RAW for sure but the flavor of being that good of a shapeshifter seems to make sense for it and at level 18 I imagine I might be able to talk my DM into allowing it, if only so I don't have to sit the fight out while the rest of the party deals with the flying dragon...

What do you guys and gals think?
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 02:08:23 PM »

You have to pick an existing race - master transmogrifist is the PrC that lets you mix & match.
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2010, 02:10:01 PM »

You could just fly above the dragon and then change into bear form and fall onto the dragon, which would probably count as a charge.
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 02:39:08 PM »

Thanks TML!  Unfortunately it looks like Master Transmogrifist requires me to be a spell caster.  Unless there is an argument that a warshaping doppleganger could get the class features...


...I mean I'm already taking a huge hit with the 4 RHD and 4 LA (in this case I get 1 freebie LA so its like 7 levels just went kaput!)

EDIT:  Well it looks like the only applicable class feature I would need/want is the level 10 Infinite Variety.  It looks like something I may be able to talk the DM into allowing me at higher levels or even as the level 20 capstone which I have yet to pick.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 02:59:35 PM by Thistledown Thurbertaut » Logged
Maat_Mons
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 09:36:25 PM »

You should give some thought to wild shape ranger 5 / master of many forms (Complete Adventurer) 10.  Being able to wild shape into any aberration, animal, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin from diminutive to gargantuan size really fits the shapechanger theme.  With 15 uses of wild shape per day (which last 15 hours each), you can afford to change shape as the situation changes. 

For flavor, it'd be cool to have the warshaper's multimorph ability and the fast wild shape (Complete Divine) and swift wild shape (Complete Champion) feats.  You could turn into a different creature every round of every day (except while sleeping) without interrupting what you were doing. 
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wotmaniac
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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2010, 10:12:57 PM »

For flavor, it'd be cool to have the warshaper's multimorph ability and the fast wild shape (Complete Divine) and swift wild shape (Complete Champion) feats.  You could turn into a different creature every round of every day (except while sleeping) without interrupting what you were doing. 
btw ..... MoMF gets fast wild shape at 3rd level.  Wink
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Maat_Mons
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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2010, 11:05:00 PM »

Upon review, I see that abilities that reduce the action necessary to wild shape don't technically reduce the action necessary to use multimorph with wild shape.  Ah well, you were already thinking about asking the DM for a house-rule. 
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strider24seven
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2010, 01:40:43 AM »

My 2 cp on VoP: 

At least 3 of the following should describe your character before you even consider using VoP:
-Your campaign is low-magic
-Your campaign is low-wealth
-Your DM is not a douche and lets you use a Spellbook/Divine Focus/etc.
-Your character has levels in Druid
-Your character has levels in a class that utilizes, improves, or abuses natural weapons, such as the Black Blood Cultist, Warshaper, Kensai, or Monk-esque PrC's
-Your character has levels in any non-Druid item independent-class or PrC, such as Wildshape Ranger, Master of Many Forms, or Bear Warrior
-Your character builds his levels around abusing spellcasting without Foci or expensive components

My special blurb on VoP Monks and Soulknives:
Yes, I am actually that Monks and Soulknives, the two classes generally considered to be the worst in 3.5 DnD, can take VoP in very specific circumstances.  Both require dipping classes to be effective, and both normally require items to function at all in a party.  The following circumstances can make a VoP Monk or Soulknife into a very effective character:
-You put off VoP until later levels to take advantage of Tomes, Magical Locations, and items such as the Sparring Dummy of the Master.  While this is generally considered cheesy, you need to take what you can get with a VoP Monk/Soulknife.
-You dip Kensai.  At least a few levels will get you effects on either natural weapons, unarmed strikes, or your mindblade.  You desperately need these.
-If you are a Soulknife, you dip Soulbow to get a good ranged attack.
-If you are a Monk, you dip either dip Monk PrC's that advance unarmed damage or take Bear Warrior and dip Warshaper.
-Eliminate MAD however you can. 

To demonstrate how VoP can be effective, try this character:

Dwarf Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Bear Warrior 5/Frostrager 5/Warshaper 2

This character eliminates most of the painful side-effects of VoP, and, if you replace Unarmed Swordsage with Monk, then it is a decent Monk as well.
With this character, you have:
-A kung-fu bear
-Immunities to cold (and fire if you take blazing berzerker)
-Mobility from Shadow Hand Teleports
-Damage Output from your bear hands
-Survivability from your massive CON
-Elimination of MAD; you only need CON.  STR and WIS are nice, but unnecessary.
-BAB 18, so a decent attack sequence with 4 Unarmed Strikes, 2 claws, and a bite
-The ability to use Battle Jump to teleport on top of people and full-attack-charge them with your bearness
-The ability to show up the fighter with his +5 Vorpal Longsword
- A kung-fu bear
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jojolagger
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2010, 02:04:29 AM »

-Damage Output from your bear hands
I'm getting sick of that pun.
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There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2010, 04:16:23 AM »

-Damage Output from your bear hands
I'm getting sick of that pun.


thats the first time iv seen it mentioned. puns in general are lame but that ones pretty...    bearable!!!!


i couldnt resist.. sry
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jojolagger
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2010, 04:25:07 AM »

thats the first time iv seen it mentioned.
It seems to show up just enough to bug me. Not here, but it is always somewhere.
puns in general are lame but that ones pretty...    bearable!!!!
That one's actually pretty good.
i couldnt resist.. sry
it's okay, the bearable bit totally made up for it.

That build is actually quite good, and seems to have somewhat stable advancement.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 04:53:12 AM by jojolagger » Logged

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In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2010, 04:44:45 AM »

thats the first time iv seen it mentioned. puns in general are lame but that ones pretty...    bearable!!!!


i couldnt resist.. sry

Don't worry, Bear Puns surfaced around the same time Stephen Colbert revealed he was One Of Us. Gamers will make jokes about it all the time: Making bear puns is a good way to tell if someone is a dedicated gamer or not (the gamers will usually joke along and keep stringing puns together, the non-gamer will probably groan).
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carnivore
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2010, 05:36:56 AM »

the VOP can actually be very strong ... provided you plan your build around it .... even a simple Fighter build can be very effective  ..... heres an example:

"Sticks and stone can break bones .... thats why i throw stones"

Dude the Stoner Saint

Goliath
Fighter 10

Attributes (32pt buy)
22 Str(15 +4 Racial +1 lvl +2 Enhancement)
12 Dex(14 -2 Racial)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
12 Int(12)
10 Wis(10)
15 Cha(14 +1 lvl)

Flaws:
Murkey Eyed
Vulnerable: -1 AC

Traits:
Aggressive: +2 Initiative, -1 AC
Quick: +10 land Speed, -1hp/lvl

Feats:
Sacred Vow(Flaw bonus)
VOP(Flaw Bonus)
Nymphs Kiss(VOP bonus)

1st lvl: Education, Brutal Throw(Fighter bonus)
2nd lvl: Rock Hurling(Fighter bonus),Touch of Golden Ice(VOP bonus)
3rd lvl: Knowledge Devotion
4th lvl: Weapon Focus(Rocks)(Fighter bonus),Sanctify Martial Strike(VOP bonus)
6th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Rocks), Improved Rock Hurling(Fighter bonus),Nimbus of Light(VOP bonus)
8th lvl: Power Attack(Fighter bonus),Holy Radience(VOP bonus)
9th lvl: Power Throw
10th lvl: Ranged Weapon Mastery(Bludgeoning)(Fighter bonus),Knight of the Stars(VOP bonus)

VOP Benifits @ 10th lvl
+2 Enhancement (1 Ability)
constant Endure Elements
No need to Eat or Drink(similar to ring of sustenance)
mind shielding(sim to ring)
+1 resistance to all saves
+7 Exalted AC
+1 Deflection AC
+1 natural Armor
+2 enhancement to all attacks
DR 5/Evil
Combat Abilities:

throwing Rocks:
BAB +10
Attack Bonus = +10 BAB +6 Str +1 IRH +1 WF +2 RWM +2 Enhancement +2 Insight = +24 to Hit

Damage = 7(ave of 2d6) +6 Str +2 Enhancement +2 Insight +2 WSpl +2 RWM = +21 Damage

Range Increment = 80' +20' RWM = 100' .... can throw rocks to 500'

Full Attack = +22/+17

can also Power Attack with Rocks max +10 damage, per throw


this build also qualifies for the Saint Template.... which makes it even stronger, and later will take TWF(TWF,IMP TWF, Greater TWF) or Ranged feat Trees(Point blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Imp Rapid Shot) also Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization maybe Far Shot too and some other ranged feats

this just shows what you might face if you annoy beggars sitting on a piles of rocks

this build does quite well for any party ... and compares well to any 10th lvl Character(martial focused)


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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2010, 06:15:16 AM »

How easy would it be to make a good totemist VOP build my first thought would be that it would be fairly easy but I'm not sure?
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2010, 09:00:20 AM »

How easy would it be to make a good totemist VOP build my first thought would be that it would be fairly easy but I'm not sure?
Pretty easy, though you'd want to pick up some of the incarnate soulmelds for mobility purposes and some utility.
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