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Author Topic: Vow of Poverty  (Read 11608 times)
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« on: September 01, 2010, 02:51:32 AM »

Why does everyone seem to think this sucks?  I've checked it out and it looks awesome!  It bascially gives you everything you would get if you were equipped to the gills with magic items but without being nerfed by AMFs or being able to lose or break them. 


Consider also that in my current game there are no regular Ye Olde Magick Shopes around...magic is rare and controlled.  The DM rolls all our treasure randomly so the opportunities to optimize with items are practically nil.  There is no guarantee that one will get a Codec of +5 attribute boosting or the like.  VoP would garauntee this...

So what't the problem with VoP?
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weenog
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 02:52:58 AM »

It's dumb as hell, is what's the problem.  It assumes combat is conducted on a flat plane and is more or less a straightforward exchange of damage, and the only real difficulty that comes up.  It includes no real problem-solving abilities and no mobility enhancers and forbids you from getting them on your own through the normal channels.

If you're a druid you're already so versatile and powerful that you can take the feat just to show off, others not so much.  When your enemy can fly and you can't and your ranged weapon options include "throw rocks", you suck.
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jojolagger
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2010, 02:56:41 AM »

Unless your in a low gear setting, VoP it inferior to have gear due to the fact that a VoP monk can't fly (except for racial abilities). Do you know what a caster needs to do to kill any character with VoP (assuming you have no dumb spellcasters who took VoP)? Cast fly, Bam. instant win.
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weenog
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2010, 03:00:54 AM »

Even casters are dicked over to some degree by not being able to own costly things like specific expensive material components and focuses, but some lose out on more spells than others, that way.
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2010, 03:12:14 AM »

Hate to break the news to you, but VoP's affected by AMFs just like Magic Items are. All Exalted, Psionic, Vile, Abyssal Heritor, and Incarnum feats are negated by AMFs. Check the New Feats section in front of the Exalted feats: It says they are SU in nature.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 03:28:00 AM »

Wow...so much for my VoP Runescarred Berserker concept... Sad

As for the point about flying: You assume that every character in a party will eventually be able to fly via items or spells.  This seems to me to be not the case.  Most melee builds would either need a ranged weapon or have the party caster cast fly on them.

In this case it wouldn't necessarily matter because I am considering playing a Doppleganger Warshaper build meaning I could just shapeshift into a Raptoran or similar.

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weenog
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 03:58:42 AM »

As for the point about flying: You assume that every character in a party will eventually be able to fly via items or spells.  This seems to me to be not the case.  Most melee builds would either need a ranged weapon or have the party caster cast fly on them.

No, I don't.  I do however assume that people who don't fly will have dangerous ranged attack options to compensate.  A sling, a single javelin, a shortspear, a club, or a rock you picked up off the ground isn't going to cut it.  A composite longbow (preferably magical, but not necessarily) keyed to a Str bonus of +10 or so can do a bit of damage, and has a decent range to it, but you can't afford that, can you?
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 04:28:23 AM »

i would only use vop in cases where your dm is a douche and doesnt give you jack shit at all.     
























































































like mine
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Mixster
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 04:58:21 AM »

I think the only real cool thing about it is if you combine it with being a forsaker.

You cannot use magic, and you cannot use expensive items, but you are quite crazy power.

You need to get a lot of usefulness out of races and stuff like that, so a half-dragon troll would probably be best for this. Or a Dragon Born with the wings could also work.
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 08:36:23 AM »

As for the point about flying: You assume that every character in a party will eventually be able to fly via items or spells.  This seems to me to be not the case.  Most melee builds would either need a ranged weapon or have the party caster cast fly on them.

No, I don't.  I do however assume that people who don't fly will have dangerous ranged attack options to compensate.  A sling, a single javelin, a shortspear, a club, or a rock you picked up off the ground isn't going to cut it.  A composite longbow (preferably magical, but not necessarily) keyed to a Str bonus of +10 or so can do a bit of damage, and has a decent range to it, but you can't afford that, can you?
Exactly.

Lots of PCs can't fly.  Sadly, the higher level you get, the more likely your opponents can fly.  They actually tend to become more maneuverable in general.  The PCs who can't deal with this increased mobility have a hard time contributing in these types of fights.  It's really boring when you're one of those players who can't interact with your opponents in a particular combat.  It's not fun when your best option is "go and play Smash Bros."
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 09:27:43 AM »

That said, combine VoP with Incarnum, and you shore up a lot of the weaknesses in terms of utility and mobility access.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 09:28:45 AM »

Even aside from flying, the bonuses you get from VoP just don't match up to the bonuses magic items give, in power or especially in versatility. The huge pile of bonus feats might make it worth looking at if they were from an open list, but there are so few exalted feats that you'll run out of the good ones very quickly (and since VoP takes two of your regular feats, you could have just spent the feats on those few good exalted feats instead of on Sacred Vow and VoP.)
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Prime32
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 09:35:55 AM »

Even aside from flying, the bonuses you get from VoP just don't match up to the bonuses magic items give, in power or especially in versatility. The huge pile of bonus feats might make it worth looking at if they were from an open list, but there are so few exalted feats that you'll run out of the good ones very quickly (and since VoP takes two of your regular feats, you could have just spent the feats on those few good exalted feats instead of on Sacred Vow and VoP.)
Depending on how you read the text, you might only be required to make your first bonus feat an exalted feat.
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 09:37:42 AM »

Even aside from flying, the bonuses you get from VoP just don't match up to the bonuses magic items give, in power or especially in versatility. The huge pile of bonus feats might make it worth looking at if they were from an open list, but there are so few exalted feats that you'll run out of the good ones very quickly (and since VoP takes two of your regular feats, you could have just spent the feats on those few good exalted feats instead of on Sacred Vow and VoP.)
Depending on how you read the text, you might only be required to make your first bonus feat an exalted feat.
PsyRef the extra exalted feats into regular feats. That's doable by 7th level easily, even for someone with no money.
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A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 09:43:43 AM »

Even aside from flying, the bonuses you get from VoP just don't match up to the bonuses magic items give, in power or especially in versatility. The huge pile of bonus feats might make it worth looking at if they were from an open list, but there are so few exalted feats that you'll run out of the good ones very quickly (and since VoP takes two of your regular feats, you could have just spent the feats on those few good exalted feats instead of on Sacred Vow and VoP.)
Depending on how you read the text, you might only be required to make your first bonus feat an exalted feat.
PsyRef the extra exalted feats into regular feats. That's doable by 7th level easily, even for someone with no money.
No it isn't.  PsyRef only replaces your choices with other eligible choices at the level you made said choice.  You need a DCFS to do what you're suggesting.
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 09:51:59 AM »

No it isn't.  PsyRef only replaces your choices with other eligible choices at the level you made said choice.  You need a DCFS to do what you're suggesting.

Further, while Embracing the Dark Chaos is not technically an evil act by normal standards, I would not be even slightly surprised at a DM deciding that voluntarily channeling the power of the Abyss counts as a violation of the superior moral standard required for Exalted feats in the first place, thus losing you those feats entirely.
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 09:57:56 AM »

No it isn't.  PsyRef only replaces your choices with other eligible choices at the level you made said choice.  You need a DCFS to do what you're suggesting.

Further, while Embracing the Dark Chaos is not technically an evil act by normal standards, I would not be even slightly surprised at a DM deciding that voluntarily channeling the power of the Abyss counts as a violation of the superior moral standard required for Exalted feats in the first place, thus losing you those feats entirely.
Ah, but you're embracing Chaos, not Evil.  Chaotic Good is perfectly acceptable for Exalted Characters.
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I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 10:07:29 AM »

Ah, but you're embracing Chaos, not Evil.  Chaotic Good is perfectly acceptable for Exalted Characters.

"You infuse the creature touched with raw chaos channeled from the Abyss. Somehow it looks more fiendish than before."

Not even a little bit sinister there, mate. Smile Obviously it's not an evil act as written and the energy you're pulling out isn't inherently evil, but you're certainly drawing power from an evil source. That's fine alignmentwise for most characters, and if we weren't talking about exalted feats specifically it wouldn't be an issue but exalted characters are explicitly held to a higher and unfortunately poorly-defined standard.
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jojolagger
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 12:33:16 PM »

Warlocks use infernal powers, but can be CG. If for some reason a warlock took sacred vows, would using his invocations be considered evil? No it wouldn't. DCFS is fine here.
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In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
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But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 12:44:21 PM »

You could even be a Hellfire Warlock and draw on the power of the Nine Hells while remaining CG.
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