Please tell me I'm wrong about this...

[Senevri]

I think you should refresh your knowledge of Geomancer. Complete Divine, P.42.

There's even a specific example of "a cleric/geomancer who also has levels in wizard, sorcerer, or bard can spontaneously convert any arcane or divine spell of an appropriate level into a cure or inflict spell of equal or lower level".

[Amechra]

I just looked at it. Thing is, until that class was made, there is no indication that that clause was even needed.

I think it's there just for the sake of completeness...

[skydragonknight]

I just looked at it. Thing is, until that class was made, there is no indication that that clause was even needed.

I think it's there just for the sake of completeness...

Be careful. Start adding RAI to a RAW argument and the whole thing will come crashing down in flames. Just a fair warning.

Swift and immediate actions aren't in core because they weren't needed at the time, but now they're integral to the system and abilities like feather fall and quicken spell have been retconned to reflect the shift in rules. So even if Geomancer is non-core, it's a valid point that Geomancer implies that converting non-cleric slots into cure spells is not the norm, and implied rules are only a step beneath rules as written (like the spontaneous sorcerer, the game doesn't function without some implied rules).

Still, it's only a "good" argument from Senevri, not a "definitive" argument. I think it's time to crack open chapter 10 of the PHB and have a thorough read, to see if the detailed magic rules have anything to say on the matter. /ref mode

[Nachofan99]

Did someone say that it doesn't say Sorcerers are spontaneous casters in the PHB?  Read it again.

"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time ..." pg. 54 PHB.

Then read pg. 139 Rules Compendium.

"They can cast any spell they know...These characters are called spontaneous characters."

Simple.  Yes the word "spontaneous" is not directly printed.  But the definition is, and it's part of the sorc write-up.

As for this build and the shenanigans of it, it doesn't work, RAW.  If you can find me the text that specifically mentions the ability to burn "wizard spell slots" to "cast cleric spells" then and only then does it work. Also, all of the objections posted before me are all valid and good reasons why this doesn't work.  RAI (which is not RAW) is a good out of game reason why no one would allow this in their game if it even was RAW.

[Suzerain]

At this point we might just as well say RAW = RAI.

Yes, he's posing something so "absurd" that even Kell won't use it in his builds, but that doesn't mean it's not RAW, it just means it's silly. Like the Kobold that ascends to godhood in 24 seconds gametime by chanting a name, lighting a candle and then vanishing to some place where time as we know it is distorted.

Fine, I'll grant you that this is more TO than other things are, not because of the benefit of this feat, but because of the implication that you can get cleric spell access on the cheap. With the rules as written, a gaming group totally "untainted" with any previous D&D experiences might come up with a system where exactly that is possible, though. And it might even work for them, if their top tier players don't play very optimized.

This is all by considering only the "proof" (more like arguments, really) previously stated. So I'm in favor of following SDK's advice and either digging up evidence or stop claiming something as "definitely" not RAW.

[McPoyo]

I still don't see how it works, RAW.

[Amechra]

Wait, Kell wouldn't use this? Kell, is that true?

[Senevri]

...Huh.
Versatile spellcaster is really ambiguous. What was quoted was in practice, the full text of the feat.
- you can use two spell slots of the same level,
 ->RAW: nothing is stopping you from using wizard or cleric slots, either. 'of the same level' can be read to mean that both slots must come from the same class, however.
 - to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
 ->Do you KNOW any spells? A wizard, doesn't by default know ANY spells.
...
so no, it doesn't work, RAW. Clerics don't _know_ any spells either.

Also, by going with the assumption that "level 2 sorcerer spells" != "level 2 beguiler spells", you can't use the ability to cast cross-class either. no BEGUILER spell is 'one level higher' than a X level sorcerer spell.

[Wings of Peace]

Even if this does work I don't see how it's a problem.  With 1 level of cleric you're expending two spells for a 2nd level Cleric spell, two 2nd Level Cleric Spell for a 3rd level cleric spell, etc...  It seems horribly inefficient efficient.

[KellKheraptis]

Wait, Kell wouldn't use this? Kell, is that true?

Even I have standards, afterall   And besides...getting the full Cleric list on shaky ground simply requires one level of Contemplative, which is an awesome dip for Warmages/Beguilers/Dread Necros anyway for the domain.

[McPoyo]

Wait, Kell wouldn't use this? Kell, is that true?

Even I have standards, afterall   And besides...getting the full Cleric list on shaky ground simply requires one level of Contemplative, which is an awesome dip for Warmages/Beguilers/Dread Necros anyway for the domain.

anyspell, limited wish, and greater anyspell to the rescue!

[Echoes]

...Huh.
Versatile spellcaster is really ambiguous. What was quoted was in practice, the full text of the feat.
- you can use two spell slots of the same level,
 ->RAW: nothing is stopping you from using wizard or cleric slots, either. 'of the same level' can be read to mean that both slots must come from the same class, however.

No, it can't. Spell level is a clearly defined term within the rules, and is not related to class in any way. A 4th-level spell is a 4th-level spell, regardless of whether a Wizard, a Paladin, or an Ur-Priest cast it.

- to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
 ->Do you KNOW any spells? A wizard, doesn't by default know ANY spells.
...
so no, it doesn't work, RAW. Clerics don't _know_ any spells either.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells (see
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, page 179).

This strongly implies that a Wizard's spells known is her spellbook, as does the use of "learn" throughout the text on page 178-179.

[Senevri]

No, it can't. Spell level is a clearly defined term within the rules, and is not related to class in any way. A 4th-level spell is a 4th-level spell, regardless of whether a Wizard, a Paladin, or an Ur-Priest cast it.

Well, I could make some noise about spells appearing at different levels, but, I guess. Any quote?

Okay, the term 'know' has been applied to wizards - and even in the context of their spellbooks.
RAW, a wizard can now cast ANY SPELL IN THEIR SPELLBOOK with versatile spellcaster, by spending two lower level slots.

Still doesn't apply to cleric, though.

[Suzerain]

Okay, the term 'know' has been applied to wizards - and even in the context of their spellbooks.
RAW, a wizard can now cast ANY SPELL IN THEIR SPELLBOOK with versatile spellcaster, by spending two lower level slots.

Still doesn't apply to cleric, though.

I see your point. Clerics don't "know", they "get access". So in core, it doesn't work for clerics (since I can't find any passage where "knowing" is applied to clerics in the PHB).

[raith0]

No, it can't. Spell level is a clearly defined term within the rules, and is not related to class in any way. A 4th-level spell is a 4th-level spell, regardless of whether a Wizard, a Paladin, or an Ur-Priest cast it.

Well, I could make some noise about spells appearing at different levels, but, I guess. Any quote?

Okay, the term 'know' has been applied to wizards - and even in the context of their spellbooks.
RAW, a wizard can now cast ANY SPELL IN THEIR SPELLBOOK with versatile spellcaster, by spending two lower level slots.

Still doesn't apply to cleric, though.

not a bad trade for a caster level and a feat.  im sure i can find better uses for both but not a bad trade all in all

[Hallack]

Wait, Kell wouldn't use this? Kell, is that true?

Even I have standards, afterall   And besides...getting the full Cleric list on shaky ground simply requires one level of Contemplative, which is an awesome dip for Warmages/Beguilers/Dread Necros anyway for the domain.

Is there a trick to meet the Divine Caster Prereq. that is not too far out there or do you have to take the divine casting dip?

[skydragonknight]

No, it can't. Spell level is a clearly defined term within the rules, and is not related to class in any way. A 4th-level spell is a 4th-level spell, regardless of whether a Wizard, a Paladin, or an Ur-Priest cast it.

Well, I could make some noise about spells appearing at different levels, but, I guess. Any quote?

Okay, the term 'know' has been applied to wizards - and even in the context of their spellbooks.
RAW, a wizard can now cast ANY SPELL IN THEIR SPELLBOOK with versatile spellcaster, by spending two lower level slots.

Still doesn't apply to cleric, though.

not a bad trade for a caster level and a feat.  im sure i can find better uses for both but not a bad trade all in all

A nice boost for Ultimate Maguses.

[Senevri]

it... even makes some amount of fluff sense.
- you must have a level in a spontaneous class to get this, so...
- CLEARLY you have some sorcerous talent, and aren't alike your ordinary wizards...
- Thus, you retain enough of a feel for the spells you've cast as a wizard...
- To use your sorcerous talents to cast them again, albeit using a rather curious flow of magic to do so.

[skydragonknight]

Not the worst abuse, since you can't cast spells above your highest. More of a versatility thing that only becomes absurd at high levels when your gold : spell ratio allows you to buy a LOT of spells.

[Echoes]

You can just take the Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion and just take the feat by itself. No need to dip Sorcerer and waste caster levels.

As to the spell level thing,

The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number
between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell. The Level entry also indicates whether a spell is a domain spell and, if so, what its domain and its level as a domain spell are. A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect.
For example, the Level entry for hold person is “Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.” That means it is a 2nd-level spell for bards, a 2nd-level spell for clerics, and a 3rd-level spell for sorcerers and wizards. The level entry for magic vestment is “Clr 3, Strength 3, War 3.” That means it is a 3rd-level spell for clerics, the 3rd-level Strength domain spell, and the 3rd-level War domain spell.

All spell level governs is when a class get's access to the spell, and how powerful the spell is (DC-wise).