Help with strangely structured Gestalt

[idontmuchcareforit]

whew, making me do some book work.

Ok, eldritch chain gives you iterative attacks, that are all ranged touch attacks, so all legal for sneak attack.
Only good for multiple targets though, unfortunately.  This is bad news; however, it's not all bad.  The text of eldritch chain indicates that you would only lose 1 con regardless of the # of targets.  The chain gets interrupted if you miss, but I don't even see how that's really possible, considering you're hitting against their 10+deflection+size(more than likely negative).

Still, vs. a single target, you can force all kinds of saves on them every round, along with almost 100 damage, and a death attack.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The version of Divine Metamagic that I'm looking at says you apply it to "divine spells you know."  So wouldn't that be only the Paladin spells that I could quicken, then?

from complete divine

   Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic
 feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free
 action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking
 undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that
 you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt,
 plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the
 metamagic feat you’re using. For example, Jozan the cleric
 could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite
 he’s casting. Because you’re using positive or negative
 energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell
 doesn’t change.

Check the errata.  It's now only divine spells

[Zebu]

On the blasting-- Yep, Glaive is out, and DMeta is errata'd.

Also, new words from the DM.  I can take Eldritch Theurge class features (the three that Warlocks don't get: Spellblast, Spellweave, and Greatreach) as feats at the character levels where they'd be available if I were a Theurge.  So there is, hypothetically, a way to stack spells onto my Eldritch Blast.  Since he's also allowing Arcane Thesis, I can definitely see some potential.  With, say, Enervation.  But is it worth it?

Getting back to the sneak attack build-- I've been reading over the guides, and one of the things they suggest is stacking a prestige class that advances class features (like Legacy Champion) on top of Hellfire Warlock.  Would that be worthwhile, or is Imbue Item too good to pass up?
Either way...  This campaign is going to be fairly heavy in outsiders, and our last enemy was an ooze.  I'm concerned about the reliability of Sneak Attack.

Also, what feats would people recommend for the first two levels?  I'm thinking the fighter feat will be Improved Initiative.  The starting feat...  Perhaps Knowledge Devotion?  

[idontmuchcareforit]

On the blasting, you don't need glaive, use eldritch chain.

Thanks for that Errata, i'll mark my book.

If he'll allow you to take greatreach blast without the other two as prereq's then it's definitely worthwhile.  Otherwise... meh.

Arcane thesis applies to spells, not SLA's.  I'm not even sure what you'd hope to achieve by applying it to eldritch blast...
Allowing those class features as legal for extra invocation is pretty cool.  Maybe build it like:
Fighter1/sorcerer4/mage of the arcane order4/sorcerer3/mage of the arcane order5-10/sorcerer2//warlock9/hellfire warlock3/warlock10-17
making sure to grab spell preparation, cooperative spell, and some other metamagic feat, maybe energy sub and Bo3T

This gets you massive versatility and power.
If flaws are not allowed, you might have to push MotAO back a level.


Moving on, legacy champion is an odd PrC.  Given how strict your DM has been thusfar, I feel like that PrC would get banhammered.  If he allows it, then there is little reason not to take it.  It seems especially unlikely that he'll allow it because he can so easily prohibit it by not giving you a legacy weapon.

Improved initiative and knowledge devotion are fine choices for feats for the sneak attack build, for this caster build you'll need all the feats you can get to get into MotAO.

If he bans MotAO, just pick up a different PrC, initiate of the 7-fold veil, frostmage w/e.

[Zebu]

First, thanks a lot for all of your help.  This is teaching me a great deal.

Back to the character--
My idea with thesis was to apply it to a (sorcerer) spell, then glue the spell to EB.  So I'd have the high Eldritch Blast damage, plus an essence, plus a spell with Persistent (the Pathfinder version), etc, tacked on at reduced levels.  With the Arcane sorcerer bloodline, they'd be rolling at least three saves against high DCs every time I hit them.  And with Quicken SLA, I could do that twice a round.  Maybe.

The feats-- this is Pathfinder, so I have more of them than average.  So it still looks doable.  -Is- there a fighter feat (besides Improved Initiative) that would help with Mage of the Arcane Order, though?
Based on a very unusual backstory, I now have one bonus feat slot at first level.  But flaws are prohibited.
I've been using the Dragontouched feat (reflavored).  The DM's ruled that with it, I can access draconic invocations.  Some of those are pretty neat.  But it looks like this build will need more feats; should I drop it?

I can't find a spell preparation; you mean Arcane Preparation?  That's a pretty neat feat-- I'd never even realized sorcerer preparation was possible.  Almost makes me want to choose a different bloodline, now.

I really like the MotAO; sent an email to the GM about it.

[idontmuchcareforit]

yes, you need to drop that feat.

You need arcane prep, coop spell and energy sub.

Quicken SLA is pretty great, save that for the later levels

I can't think of any other fighter feats that would serve you well

If your DM gives you flak about MotAO not being meant for sorcerers, make sure you remind him that Arcane prep and MotAO are from the same book.

Arcane thesis seems meh for this build.

[Maat_Mons]

Ok, eldritch chain gives you iterative attacks, that are all ranged touch attacks, so all legal for sneak attack.

I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, but in 3.5, Complete Arcane page 86 has this rule:

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round.  When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not. 

[Zebu]

Update-- according to the GM, Mage of the Arcane Order is approved and, quote, "very cool."  It'll help a lot in our campaign to have access to all of those situational spells; for a while I was afraid I'd need to take Scribe Scroll and use Imbue Item to generate any odd spells that no one had.  
The one caveat is that he's ruled I need to "prepare" empty slot(s) to call the pool spells into.

As for feats: Cooperative Spell requires any other metamagic feat.  Energy sub takes some knowledge:arcane and any other metamagic feat.  Arcane Preparation is, sadly, not a metamagic feat.  So I need to take some other metamagic feat to unlock cooperative spell.  Ideally that'd be a +0 LA (for obvious reasons) but the only other good +0 one I can think of is Invisible Spell.  Which (naturally) requires any one metamagic feat.  So I'm thinking of Extend Spell to start the ball rolling.
Oh hey.  While typing this, I went to the Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide to check something and found Elemental Spell, which only converts half of the damage and is a +1 spell LA.  But it doesn't have prerequisites.  I don't think it's worth it, but the option's there.  What do you think?

I'm not chiming in on the eldritch chain-- way outside my expertise.

One more request.  I'm trying to pick spells and invocations.  My original design was Baleful Utterance/Entropic Warding and Silent Image/Color Spray.  But now we have a Beguiler in the party, so Silent Image at least is relegated to a scroll.  Possibly Color Spray as well.  Now I'm trying to decide what to take in place of it.

EDIT: Also, flaws are available now.  Don't ask me why.  I'd like to use them--without entirely breaking this character.

[veekie]

On an As Written reading, you CAN use the Chain to sneak attack I think, since similar abilities that prevent precision damage are usually spelled out in the effect itself. Your GM may choose to interpret it otherwise though.
Thats quite common too.

[idontmuchcareforit]

Update-- according to the GM, Mage of the Arcane Order is approved and, quote, "very cool."  It'll help a lot in our campaign to have access to all of those situational spells; for a while I was afraid I'd need to take Scribe Scroll and use Imbue Item to generate any odd spells that no one had. 
The one caveat is that he's ruled I need to "prepare" empty slot(s) to call the pool spells into.

Hooray! our long search for a build your DM won't ban is over!

There's really no other way to interperet the class feature.  Spontaneously casting any arcane spell you don't already know is a little overpowered

As for feats: Cooperative Spell requires any other metamagic feat.  Energy sub takes some knowledge:arcane and any other metamagic feat.  Arcane Preparation is, sadly, not a metamagic feat.  So I need to take some other metamagic feat to unlock cooperative spell.  Ideally that'd be a +0 LA (for obvious reasons) but the only other good +0 one I can think of is Invisible Spell.  Which (naturally) requires any one metamagic feat.  So I'm thinking of Extend Spell to start the ball rolling.
Oh hey.  While typing this, I went to the Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide to check something and found Elemental Spell, which only converts half of the damage and is a +1 spell LA.  But it doesn't have prerequisites.  I don't think it's worth it, but the option's there.  What do you think?

Elemental spell is definitely not worth it.
If you're buffing or debuffing, take extend spell, if you're blasting or battlefield controlling, use widen spell; however, keep in mind that none of eldritch theurge's abilities can make use of widen spell.
Sudden widen from miniatures handbook is probably superior, especially at low levels.  Check with your DM about legality.

One more request.  I'm trying to pick spells and invocations.  My original design was Baleful Utterance/Entropic Warding and Silent Image/Color Spray.  But now we have a Beguiler in the party, so Silent Image at least is relegated to a scroll.  Possibly Color Spray as well.  Now I'm trying to decide what to take in place of it.

I really like grease.  At low levels it effective against many things, and at high levels, it still one shots some golems.
Wall of smoke, benign xposition, blockade, enlarge person, nerveskitter, maybe truestrike are all good choices for first level.

You want at least one of the two eldritch essences that forces a save or X.  You can eldritch blast every round, and you likely will, but 3d6 looks a lot better with a "and make a will save."
I like baleful utterance, you should think about dropping entropic warding.

Good call Maat_Mons, only the first target would be legal for the 25d6 damage; however, that seems moot now.

[Zebu]

<quote>There's really no other way to interperet the class feature.  Spontaneously casting any arcane spell you don't already know is a little overpowered</quote>
Yeah, yeah.  But a guy can dream, can't he?

I'll ask about Sudden Widen.

I looked at Grease-- it gives me something that targets Reflex.  But at the same time...  enemies are going to walk out after the first round, so caster level doesn't seem important.  I was just going to buy a scroll or two of it.
Benign Transposition is, again, totally awesome, but it's also kinda situational.  And since I'm a warlock, I get easy Use Magic Device, and it only gets easier over time.
I'm thinking about Nerveskitter (to retrain when I get an Eternal Wand of it).  I'm still tempted by Color Spray (especially with Sudden Widen).  Truestrike not so much; it seems made for scary touch spells, which they just don't issue at first level.  Enlarge Person again looks ideal for a scroll.
As I type this, I'm starting to wonder if all of those scrolls might be a bit expensive at first level.  But it's not like I'd use them often, so...

Yes, dropped Entropic for Frightening.  With Grease, that gives me decent attacks on fortitude, reflex, and will.

Now, as I mentioned above, the GM is allowing flaws.  He hasn't mentioned any limits, but I'd rather like to keep it balanced (so one, maybe two).  I was thinking of spending a flaw on Dragontouched, which would impact all of my classes--
Warlock gets draconic invocations (DM fiat)
Sorcerer gets Draconic alternate class levels (so much better than a familiar)
Fighter gets Draconic Husk ACF.

I'm not 100% sure about that last one, though.  It's good, all-day armor without arcane spell failure (as best I can tell), but it seems like I wouldn't be able to use regular armor once I can afford it.  Reactions?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So are you getting any sor/wiz spell, or just the PHB ones?

[idontmuchcareforit]

Colorspray is OK at level 1, but it wanes quickly into a complete waste of a turn by level 5.  If you take it MAKE SURE YOU RETRAIN IT.
Grease is basically regarded as THE best level 1 spell.  It is the only first level spell, that i'm aware of, to get a triple evil laugh from Treantmonk.
Your enemies ability to "walk out of it" is dependent on placement.  Put it directly in front of your party (hallway) so that they have to walk through at least one square to get to you.  Conversely, if you're having problems with them running away, put it behind them to slow them down.  You can use it to disarm people as well.
Nerveskitter is not useful on a wand.  Wands take a standard action to use.  I would recommend retraining colorspray into nerveskitter, as nerveskitter's usefulness waxes as colorspray's wanes.  Blockade is also extremely useful b/c of it's casting time.  Guaranteeing that your fighter doesn't get flanked, or sealing a door shut, or preventing something from sinking in water, or breaking line of sight/effect, or squashing a fire, or making a stepping stone, or making a climbable object all as a swift action.
Enlarge person and benign xposition are good candidates for wands.  Enlarge person is probably not useful on a scroll though, buffs usually aren't.

For feats... I'm gonna recommend energy sub and bo3t again, or move all of the feats you to your first 3 levels and take leadership at 6, may i recommend a void disciple cohort.  If you want to be sneaky, I love invisible spell because when you're invisible and someone casts trueseeing or see invisibility, you can invisible fog them so that they, again, will be unable to see you.
If you're overwhelmed by options, spell penetration is fairly necessary for both sides, especially before assay sr.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Sculpted grease (if you take sculpt spell) is even better for its level than normal grease.  Same with glitterdust.

[Zebu]

So are you getting any sor/wiz spell, or just the PHB ones?

I can use any WotC or pahtfinder stuff, provided the DM approves it as balanced.

Grease is basically regarded as THE best level 1 spell.  It is the only first level spell, that i'm aware of, to get a triple evil laugh from Treantmonk.
Your enemies ability to "walk out of it" is dependent on placement.  Put it directly in front of your party (hallway) so that they have to walk through at least one square to get to you.  Conversely, if you're having problems with them running away, put it behind them to slow them down.  You can use it to disarm people as well.

Alright, you've sold me.  It seems pretty effective unless they're trained in Balance.  And I -do- need a Reflex spell.

Blockade is also extremely useful b/c of it's casting time.  Guaranteeing that your fighter doesn't get flanked, or sealing a door shut, or preventing something from sinking in water, or breaking line of sight/effect, or squashing a fire, or making a stepping stone, or making a climbable object all as a swift action.

I neglected to find out what this was the last time you mentioned it; that was a serious oversight.  It's a pity that I can't drop it on a scroll and still use it as a swift action, though, since its characteristics are completely fixed.  I'll definitely take it at some point.  Maybe even first level, since I don't have any other swift actions.

Enlarge person and benign xposition are good candidates for wands.  Enlarge person is probably not useful on a scroll though, buffs usually aren't.

I didn't want to buy 50 copies of Enlarge Person because it seems like after I gain a few levels, there'll be better things to do than give the fighter Reach and +4.5 damage/round.  Am I missing something, like I was with Grease?
Benign Trans seems fairly versatile.  I do only have 1000 gold to play around with (so 1 wand max).

For feats... I'm gonna recommend energy sub and bo3t again, or move all of the feats you to your first 3 levels and take leadership at 6, may i recommend a void disciple cohort.  If you want to be sneaky, I love invisible spell because when you're invisible and someone casts trueseeing or see invisibility, you can invisible fog them so that they, again, will be unable to see you.

Bo3t-- Which spell would I apply this to?  In my mind, I'm getting most of my direct damage from Eldritch Blast, which can't thunder (right?), and using sorcerer spells for versatility (control, buffing, etc).  Would you suggest something different?
Leadership has always seemed unutterably imbalanced to me.  I'll watch the game for a few levels, but I'm probably not touching that.  Although...  Pathfinder actually imported Leadership, so maybe it's more balanced than I thought.  +1 character in exchange for a feat just seems a little excessive.
Yes.  Invisible Spell is amazing, especially for a +0 LA.  Some of my greatest gaming moments involved casting Invisible Silent Image.  Very good times.

Sculpted grease (if you take sculpt spell) is even better for its level than normal grease.  Same with glitterdust.

Hadn't considered Sculpt Spell...  It does seem to really boost Grease.  The +1 LA means it won't be immediately useful, but this is a long-term build anyways.  Pity it, too, requires "any metamagic feat."

[idontmuchcareforit]

my recommendation.
Lvl1 flaw, flaw cooperative spell, arcane preparation, (metamagic) spell, sculpt spell
lvl3energy substitution
lvl6bo3t
lvl9leadership
lvl12craft contingent spell

[Zebu]

Bo3t-- Which spell would I apply this to?  In my mind, I'm getting most of my direct damage from Eldritch Blast, which can't thunder (right?), and using sorcerer spells for versatility (control, buffing, etc).  What are you thinking of?

[idontmuchcareforit]

I guess I was too subtle.

by the time you are level 6 you will be near to having blasty spells that play nice with Bo3T.

You are correct in saying that at level 2 you do not have options usable with bo3t, this is why it comes late in the build.

It works extremely well with freezing fog, although that's later in levels.  Blistering radience and ball lightning are also quite good.  At lower levels, thunderhead, flaming sphere, and body of the sun.

Basically any spell that does energy damage over a series of rounds.

Enjoy.

[Zebu]

Ah, many thanks.  Yes, I hadn't realized how it interacted with ongoing damage.  Suddenly it seems much more amazing.  I -knew- there was a reason I came here!