Let's talk about : The Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide

[winter_soldier]

I really haven't gone through it much, but my biggest gripe is the Summoner.  They piled on so many nonsensical restrictions on them, then didn't give them any feats at all  (save for Summoner's call, which is nothing at all).  It's so obnoxious for such a potentially cool class.

Yeah, but even nerfed, the Eidolon is a terror. Summoners out-DPR every other class in the game so much now, it's not even funny.

[Senevri]

Summoners also get a spell that slaps on an extra 6 evolution points...
and some races' favored class bonus for a summoner is +1 evolution point per 4 levels.

The class isn't just the Eidolon, y'know. If a summoner pc forgets the summoner from the equation, they'll die.

[juton]

I heard that people think that the Eidolon can outfight a Fighter, at least in the Beta test of the rules. I never really bought into that but who powerful is the Summoner+Eidolon, could it overpower a Druid+Animal companion at level 10?

[McPoyo]

I heard that people think that the Eidolon can outfight a Fighter, at least in the Beta test of the rules. I never really bought into that but who powerful is the Summoner+Eidolon, could it overpower a Druid+Animal companion at level 10?

Fighter yes. The constrict ability does that on it's own because of the grapple changes and how constrict was reworded.

Druid + animal companion...depends on the AC and how the Eidolon was built. I'd say it'd be a slim advantage to the druid.

[Viletta Vadim]

Yeah, but even nerfed, the Eidolon is a terror. Summoners out-DPR every other class in the game so much now, it's not even funny.

Oh, I have no complaints about the power of the class.  I'm complaining about the complete lack of any actual Summoner feats (save for one that sucks so much it's not worth taking).

[Senevri]

Huh? They're casters. They pick same feats a caster would.

[Viletta Vadim]

Huh? They're casters. They pick same feats a caster would.

Except... they really aren't.  They only get up to 6th-level spells, after all, making most of the caster feats pretty much useless.  DC boosts aren't worth bothering with since your DCs are gonna suck anyways.  Metamagic's not worth bothering with since you don't have the spell levels.  There just aren't any feats that actually help a Summoner, save maybe Augment Summoning.

[McPoyo]

Huh? They're casters. They pick same feats a caster would.

Except... they really aren't.  They only get up to 6th-level spells, after all, making most of the caster feats pretty much useless.  DC boosts aren't worth bothering with since your DCs are gonna suck anyways.  Metamagic's not worth bothering with since you don't have the spell levels.  There just aren't any feats that actually help a Summoner, save maybe Augment Summoning.

Especially since most of the spells are buff types designed to help your Eidolon or summons. That said, the re-done Reach Spell isn't a bad choice sometimes.

[juton]

Maybe the best course of action for the Summoner is just stay alive and assist the Eidolon. Combat casting, extra HP, feats to raise AC all can allow a Summoner to be physically in the battle while providing assistance to their big E.

[Viletta Vadim]

Maybe the best course of action for the Summoner is just stay alive and assist the Eidolon. Combat casting, extra HP, feats to raise AC all can allow a Summoner to be physically in the battle while providing assistance to their big E.

Which tends to be about as meh as taking Skill Focus: Diplomacy to spread out or as a Fighter taking Weapon Focus: Crossbow because there are no more useful feats to take.

[Senevri]

Okay, summoner feats:
- Improved init is a staple. Combat Casting, maybe.
- Metamagics, Extend and Reach. Silent, too. Helps a lot at avoiding pinpointing while invisible, and majority of the list doesn't break invisibility.
- Toughness, maybe Endurance->Diehard line, as there's HP sharing going on.
- SF: Conjuration + Augment Summoning, albeit that's of limited use, thanks to the whole Eidolon not benefitting from it unless you're using 'summon eidolon' spell....
- Item crafting feats.
Those are just from core, though. Need to check APG for any good ones there.

*edit*
Qualifies for Arcane X feats, for the most part, and since arcane strike is keyed to CL, can make good use of it with, say, a bow.
There's the lackluster Summoner's Call,
Maybe Fast Healer if there's a separate magical healer about.
Gang up and teamwork line - they'll have themselves (turning into the eidolon), and simulacra and summons/eidolon, so they are a party on their own.

Oh, and I'm sure it doesn't even need mentioning, but the Aspect line can make the summoner itself a decent combatant.
So, some combat feat path is in consideration.

Bodyguard line might be interesting for the Eidolon, though. Do note, as you pick feats for yourself and the eidolon, you can pick teamwork feats better than anyone else.

Persistent Spell is just plain NASTY, for, say, Black Tentacles, charms, baleful polymorph...
Spell Perfection is GREAT for summoners and inquisitors and bards. It allows them to virtually cast 9th level spells.
Spell Perfection on a save-or spell, combined with a persistent spell AND greater focus on that spell's  school? 

Summoners have a rather nice spell list, actually. Lots of buffy. Some BFC, Creation line, Teleports... They look a lot like full casters, except with most of direct damage reduced, but still, they've got Black Tentacles, and few others.

[juton]

Maybe the best course of action for the Summoner is just stay alive and assist the Eidolon. Combat casting, extra HP, feats to raise AC all can allow a Summoner to be physically in the battle while providing assistance to their big E.

Which tends to be about as meh as taking Skill Focus: Diplomacy to spread out or as a Fighter taking Weapon Focus: Crossbow because there are no more useful feats to take.

You do have a point, but the lack of feats is offset by its stellar class features.

[Viletta Vadim]

You do have a point, but the lack of feats is offset by its stellar class features.

It's still annoying.

[veekie]

The alchemist's option to prepare his stuff in 1 minute has some interesting possibilities, like a wizard who could prepare spells in 1 minute, except with more limited lists. Plus with the right things going in the bombs can be a right terror. Am I mistaken or can you stack say... the dispel bomb with the cloudkill one?
If it had an extract focused PrC(ala sublime chord) to take it to 9th level spell equivalents, it could be...entertaining.

[rasmuswagner]

An Oracle (of Heavens) with the Awesome Display mystery is a terror at low levels. Your basic Cha 18, level 2 Oracle can cast a 15' cone, Will save DC 15 (16 as a Gnome, and up up up). Creatures with 6 HD or less are effectively defeated, up to 8 HD are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds and blinded. That could get you pretty far.

The Dastardly Finish feat is absolute murder, especially in a party that works together.

[winter_soldier]

An Oracle (of Heavens) with the Awesome Display mystery is a terror at low levels. Your basic Cha 18, level 2 Oracle can cast a 15' cone, Will save DC 15 (16 as a Gnome, and up up up). Creatures with 6 HD or less are effectively defeated, up to 8 HD are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds and blinded. That could get you pretty far.

The Dastardly Finish feat is absolute murder, especially in a party that works together.

True, though I think it might be tough getting those conditions on enemies at higher levels.....without the right 3.5 support.

[rasmuswagner]

... the Favoured Souls gets more spells and gets 3 spells every new spell level, while the Oracle only gets 1.

AND a spell from their Mystery AND the Cure series.



Another low-level gem from the APG is on page 91, the Growth sub-domain. Swift action Enlarge, with enough uses to last every fight in a workday? As a swift action? That's a pretty damn neat buff at low levels.

[McPoyo]

... the Favoured Souls gets more spells and gets 3 spells every new spell level, while the Oracle only gets 1.

AND a spell from their Mystery AND the Cure series.

Actually, they get at least 2 new spells known at each level, one free spell every other level due to the cure series, and a free spell during the in-between levels for their mystery, so at least 3 spells per level, and later on more than that.

[juton]

On second and third glances some of the mysteries are pretty nice, even something small like the Battle mystery's 'skill at arms' is actually pretty nice, because now you don't have to dip or burn feats for heavy armour and martial weapon proficiency.

I think what really puts the Oracle ahead of the Favoured Soul is the human favoured class option by level 20 you'll have something like 17 extra spells known and 3 more cantrips, and that's quite a bit.

[McPoyo]

Especially since some of the apg clericspells aren't half bad.