General Dread Necro advice

[Felix Underwood]

Hey RobbyPants,

The presence of Tomb Tainted Soul is a pretty good indication that you are not currently undead... do you plan on becoming undead later?  Does your game allow for Retraining (or Psychic Reformation)?

Too bad your list of sources doesn't include Drow of the Underdark, or I'd recommend Imperious Command.

No Magic of Incarnum either?   [Shape Soulmeld (planar ward)]

No Lords of Madness...  [Mindsight (after the 1 level dip into Mindbender]

Are you in a position to negotiate the books available?


My general thoughts on DN feats:

Knowledge Devotion
Craft Wondrous Item
Leadership
Corpsecrafter (and some of the family, like: Nimble Bones, Bolster Resistance, Hardened Flesh)
Quicken Spell

If you do become undead:

Lifesense
Improved Turn Resistance

[InnaBinder]

Which book is Fearsome Necromancy in?

Complete Mage

[Felix Underwood]

I'm really not a big fan of that feat either...

"Any foe required to save against a necromancy spell you cast is shaken for 1 round, regardless of the result of the save. This mind-affecting fear ability does not stack with any other fear effect (it can't make a foe worse than shaken)."

I don't like the non-stacking exception.

It doesn't synergize with:

• Fearsome Armor Property (DotU, 97, +5 intimidate to demoralize as a move action)
• Dread Necro Fear Aura class feature (free action)
• Ghostly Visage fear gaze attack (familiar's action)

[snakeman830]

It's not great, but it is effectively a +2 save DC to each subsequent spell cast on the target(s).  I do prefer Sickening Grasp, though, just because it boosts the majority of your spells in a definite way.

[RobbyPants]

The presence of Tomb Tainted Soul is a pretty good indication that you are not currently undead... do you plan on becoming undead later?  Does your game allow for Retraining (or Psychic Reformation)?

No, on the undead, mostly for campaign reasons.  It'd be a real pain for the PC, and she doesn't really like intelligent undead anyway.  Also, I'd lose HP, since I have a +5 Con mod.  Also, he's running some vitality houserule he came up with, which means I have well over 130 effective HP.

As for retraining, I'm not sure, but I think no.  If so, I'd probably drop Weapon Finesse and swap it with something like Extend Spell, and then take Split ray.  Since we're using Spell Points, I could be dropping double-Enervations for a mere +4 SP.

No Lords of Madness...  [Mindsight (after the 1 level dip into Mindbender]

Are you in a position to negotiate the books available?

Yeah, my first thought was Mindsight, but I don't have that book, and I have more books than the DM.  He may have it on PDF, in which case, he might allow it.  What are the prereqs other than telepathy?

My general thoughts on DN feats:

Knowledge Devotion
Craft Wondrous Item
Leadership
Corpsecrafter (and some of the family, like: Nimble Bones, Bolster Resistance, Hardened Flesh)
Quicken Spell

• I'm not sure Knowledge Devotion would work well for the character, since she deals relatively little damage, and her rays hit almost all of the time (+6 Dex mod).
• I hadn't actually considered crafting.  It might be worth considering.
• Leadership isn't allowed.  I said that in the OP, and forgot to carry that into my latest post on the last page.
• I've toyed with Corpsecrafter, but only the extra HP stack with Undead Mastery.  I'm not sure I really like any of the subfeats that much.  Maybe Destruction Retribution, but I'd rather keep them alive (I try to run around with a few large undead) or Nimble Bones.
• Quicken Spell won't work without houseruling.

Which book is Fearsome Necromancy in?

Complete Mage

Sweet.  Thanks.

It's not great, but it is effectively a +2 save DC to each subsequent spell cast on the target(s).  I do prefer Sickening Grasp, though, just because it boosts the majority of your spells in a definite way.

I'll have to take a look at both.  I don't do a lot of touch spells, but I am tough enough to weather melee for brief periods.  In the past, I have slung a few Enervations around before trying to drop in a Slay Living.


Thanks for the ideas!  I'll have to talk to the DM for some clarification.

[Benly]

If you have the Wisdom for it (or can grab a Wis-boosting item) it's hard for a dread necro to go wrong with Arcane Disciple. I'm a fan of grabbing Revive Undead and Awaken Undead via Deathbound, just because they're two very useful utility spells to a dread necromancer that aren't on your list. (The rest of the domain isn't terribly shabby, either.)

[RobbyPants]

Oh, I would have taken that at 3rd level if I had the Wis for it.  She has an 8, so even if I blow 36K on a +6 item, she'll only be able to get 4th level spells.  Thanks, though.  It is a good suggestion.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm really not a big fan of that feat either...

"Any foe required to save against a necromancy spell you cast is shaken for 1 round, regardless of the result of the save. This mind-affecting fear ability does not stack with any other fear effect (it can't make a foe worse than shaken)."

I don't like the non-stacking exception.

I believe it's fine so long as you use Fearsome Necromancy first.  Fearsome necromancy makes them shaken, then you hit them with other fear inducers that can make people more scared

[JaronK]

The only requirement for Mindsight is the telepathy, so generally it requires dipping Mindbender.  Of course, the skills for Mindbender are hard to get for most arcane classes other than Beguilers and Factotums, but I don't remember how they line up to Dread Necromancers.

And by the way, Sickening Grasp is an amazing feat for DNs.  It gives +1 Caster Level on all Necromancy spells, and every time you do a touch attack (hi there Charnel Touch!) it sickens enemies.  Very handy.  Imperious Command is also great.

Fearsome Necromancy doesn't stack with any other fear effects, so you can't just hit them with it first.  I wouldn't bother.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

I'll have the Mindbender level next level.  I had to work at cross class ranks for Diplomacy and Sense Motive for four levels.  I already had Intimidate and Bluff where I needed them.

So, you can't stack either direction for Fearsome Necromancy?  That sucks.  Sickening Grasp sounds kinda cool, but I don't usually make touch attacks.  I tend to stand back slinging spells and let my skeletal hill giants bash things in the face.

I'll have to look those over.

[Eviltedzies]

Would destructive retribution work in conjunction with a Spellstiched using a SLA: Animate Dead?

If it doesn't then you could get around the rule that says Destructive Retribution MUST be applied to any undead you animate.

[RobbyPants]

That brings up another question (which I should already know): how do I go about spell stitching an undead creature?  As a general rule, I've avoided working with intelligent undead for flavor reasons (other than incorporeal summons), so it's not something I've looked into too much.

I looked over the two feats in CM, and I have to agree that Sickening Grasp looks better.  It doesn't look like I can stack fear in either direction on Fearsome Necromancy, as it simply says it "doesn't stack" rather than "not increasing existing fear", so it's not that good.

Even still, is Sickening Grasp better than Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)?  I guess it's a static -2 to saves against all spells and effects as opposed to a +1 DC on Necromancy schools, but the two biggest limiting factors are that the Sickened effect doesn't affect every creature type, and I have to use a touch spell to set it up.  Still, I could see more use from Spectral Hand, I suppose...

[Felix Underwood]

Re: Hit Points

Dread Necro d6 HP, averages 3.5 per level.
Undead d12 HP, averages 6.5 per level.

Plus, add in some modifiers depending on who creates you... and if desecrate is in effect...

Forgive me if the formatting doesn't carry over, but I'm going to cut/paste something from a Word file:

Desecrate Spell near an Altar/Permanent Fixture to your Diety:
“An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area…”
+2 HP/HD


Unearthed Arcana, Necromancer Variant:  Enhanced Undead (Ex)
“Any time a necromancer using this variant creates an undead creature (such as with animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead),..”
+2 HP/HD
+4 enhancement bonus to Strength
+4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity


Dread Necromancer, 8th level Class Feature:  Undead Mastery
“All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer…”
+2 HP/HD
+4 enhancement bonus to Strength (NOTE: does not stack with above)
+4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity (NOTE: does not stack with above)


Libris Mortis Feats:
Corpsecrafter:
“Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell…”
+2 HP/HD
+4 enhancement bonus to Strength (NOTE: does not stack with above)

Only Libris Mortis - Corpsecrafter calls out undead created with spells and not rituals (like necropolitans)... even then, you could argue that the "Raise" part is seperate.

Instead of reading the "or" as:  Raise with any necromancy spell, or create with any necromancy spell.
Interperate it as:  Raise (period), or create with any necromancy spell.

With it, that's another +8 HP/HD if you can get the right people to cooperate in creating you as undead.  Without it, you could get up to +6 HP/HD.  But still, that's up to your DM.  I don't think it hurts to ask.

Combine that with the extra 3 HP/HD undead get over live dread necromancers, and that's plenty of HP IMHO.


Re: destructive retribution,  Like corpsecrafter above, it depends upon how your DM reads it.  Since Spell-Like abilites are not spells, the feat may not apply.  For my games, I house rule that the caster can pick and choose when to use it (like metamagic feats).  IMHO, Feats are meant to be an advantage, not a dissadvantage.

Re: how to spellstich, I treat it like magic item creation (since it requires Craft Wondrous Item).  In my games, all the requirements for item creation apply.

As I am reading the replies, I am formulating a reply in my head... It wasn't until I got to the bottom that I saw your comment about using more Spectral Hand.  I was going to say "More Spectral Hand" along with "More Cowbell".   

[RobbyPants]

I hadn't thought about extra sources for HP on undead before.  I figured, with my Con mod, I'm averaging 8.5 HP per die (sort of).  Plus the DM is using some weird vitality houserule he created, which effectively gives me an extra 1d4 HP per die, and those might not apply if I'm undead.  This gives me roughly 11 HP per die in total.

Now, how long to the HP granted by Desecrate last for undead created in the area?  There doesn't seem to be a clause about it lasting permanently, and the duration is only 2 hours per level.  I suppose you could argue that if an undead was created in the area, future castings would also grant the HP, since it doesn't say the undead has to be created during "this casting" of Desecrate.

[McPoyo]

You just have to make them in a desecrated area, the desecrate spell itself has no effect on the HP, because the two aren't causally tied together. The duration of desecrate, and its total area, is therefore irrelevant.

[JaronK]

Any undead created near a desecrated alter simply have +2 hp/HD, permanently.  You should ALWAYS do this if you can... my DN had an alter in the carriage he rode around in, and had the ring that casts desecrate automatically.  That gave all his undead more HP.  And of course as a DN his undead already had extra HP, plus he had corpse crafter, so any undead he created via spells had d12+6 hp/HD while undead created in other ways (necropolitans) had D12+4.

For Sickening Grasp, it gives +1 CL for pretty much all your spells.  That's pretty awesome.  And then you can use touch attacks if you want to lower enemy saves.  Combine it with Fearsome armor (DotU) which lets you intimidate as a move action and Imperious Command, and you can do the following move without wasting a single spell:

Touch the enemy with Charnel Touch.  Now they're sickened (-2 saves).   Use a fear aura pulse to shake them (-2 saves).  Use Intimidate with Imperious Command to cower them.  If that didn't work, use your Ghostly Visage Familiar to paralyze them... if it did paralyze someone else instead.  Nice and cheap and easy, and the reduced saves made it really hard for them to resist.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

I've decided to use Sickening Grasp.  Thanks for the suggestions!