A quick and dirty little fighter tweak.

[Senevri]

First, let's leave full-blown fighter fixes aside; and let's just acknowledge that if one is using ToB one could just use Warblade and call it a day.

Let me preface a bit.

Fighters are weak because they only get feats without any interesting class feature. This is the consensus.
Splats help, as does ToB. You can get some limited spellcasting and new movement options with just feats.
Both 3.5 and PF fighter do the same thing, with PF fighter hitting harder
Once upon a time, I got a phonecall
--- a player wanted to join a young epic game (25th level, I think), and do so with the usual Dwarven Fighter. The players were starting chargen then...
--- I had to sigh, every other player was a full caster, and the only one not, was a CO-aware powergamer playing a monk with exceptional stats, improved NA and TWF tree, and a bought-off winged template. So I gave him a feat at every level. They sort of boggled at that - perhaps, due to the fact I just doubled the amount of work they had to do on character creation.

Never-the-less, individual feats are sort of weak, for the most part --- some exceptions exist --- and even out of those, a fighter is limited to a subset.

Tweak:
--- What if fighters just got more feats? Like, a lot more? Instead of giving them a single feat, give them, oh, three, and let's relax the restrictions a bit - effectively giving them a generic feat instead, as long as they qualify for it.
Now, fighters do fine at low levels, and a 2-level fighter-dip is a time-honored tradition. So, start this alteration from level six onwards.
And if that's not enough, just give them more. Hm. One pattern would be to give them .... hm.
- 2 feats at 4th, 3 at 6th and so forth... let me put that in table:

level:	# bonus feats
4	2
6	3
8	4
10	5
12	6
14	7
16	8
18	9
20	10

10 feats --- how's that for a capstone?

Now, this MAY be unreasonable in a core-only environment, but in a game with a bunch of completes, PHB2, whatnot, I think it should work.
The effect this has is that feats - the only thing a fighter gets, become CHEAP. Aelryinth's analysis of Fighter vs. Warblade (which prompted this, actually) shows that a Warblade gets 30+ feats in their careers - exactly so, as you can learn a maneuver with a feat - probably close to 40. Now, actual feats don't scale that well, so unless one wants to go all Tome - which is a bit of a waste if one already has books with hundreds and hundreds of feats - so getting more of them might not be all that troublesome.

ToB:
--- If it's in use, I would suggest giving fighter an IL equal to their level, and relaxing the "can pick only three maneuvers" limitation of martial study.

Digression:
ToB introduced feats which grant Maneuvers and Stances - what is your opinion on a 'Dabbler' feat which would grant a caster level of half HD on non-casting classes, and access to a single slot and a single spell known?
---

Now, how strong are feats actually, at bulk? I'm not entirely sure here. What CAN you do with a bunch of feats?

- learn the entire focus/spec line for a weapon all at once
- pick a bunch of exotic weapons
- get a surprising amount of bonus HP
- become immediately quite proficient with unarmed combat
- at level 10, go from zero to whirlwind attack immediately
- net +2 to every save

and so forth. In a way, getting multiple feats at once is sort-of similar to getting a single strong feat.
As a problem, though, it may add even more character building fatigue... well, sort of. You could just put in a bunch of Toughness feats, if you're lazy, which would actually really start to make you quite tough in combat.

Now, as said, this is a TWEAK. I doubt it breaks the game, and unless the player's really clever, it doesn't really fix the fighter's basic problem --- well, except it's not so much the fighter's problem as it is full-casting classes problem, but that's not here nor there.

Thoughts?

[RobbyPants]

Well, it certainly is an improvement and it is quick and dirty.  I'll give you that.

I think a character like this could be kind of cool, and you could make it work.  At mid levels when the benefit kicks in, you get more feats which means you might be able to specialize in two schticks instead of one.  That helps take you out of one-trick-pony territory.

At high levels, you will still be very gear dependent, but so long as the DM understands this, it might not matter too much.  You'll need to pick up various specific items to mimic important caster functions.

All in all, a fix like this in a game with a DM that understands the special needs of a fighter, this might be a decent fix.


One other thing (I'm AFB now): how many times can a character take Martial Study?  Is it limited to 3 or is it unlimited?  If it's unlimited, you could actually pick up a crap-ton of maneuvers by mid/high level, although you're running around at 1/2 Initiator Level, so you won't really be level-appropriate.  Still, you could potentially spam a lot of low level maneuvers.

[Senevri]

I did mention it there --- by default, it's limited to three maneuvers (and unlimited stances), which is kinda stupid, IMO.

I guess this falls in the category of every single ( decent ) houserule, after all:
- Overpowered in one game
- Underwhelming in other
- Just about right sometimes.

[RobbyPants]

That's what is is:  three maneuvers and unlimited stances.

Okay, so that takes spamming maneuvers out as an option, but you could still easily pick up three of them, which isn't a bad thing.

[Senevri]

Hm. Actually combining increasing feats + unlimited martial study + fighter level as IL is a slightly dangerous idea, as at capstone, the fighter could pick a combination of ten stances and maneuvers. If we stick to three maneuvers OR half level as IL, it's probably still okay, though... and of course, the default rule of half IL, 3 maneuvers is just fine.

You can  get pretty high in a single style, as you can use martial stance to get prerequisites.
Hey, BTW: RAW Blade Meditation's +1 damage bonus stacks if you pick a weapon that exists in multiple disciplines, and it doesn't require knowing a maneuver from a _specific_ style, just one maneuver from ANY discipline. You don't even have to use that discipline's strike, it just says "when using a strike combat maneuver". RAW, that is, not actual gameplay. What do you know, Unarmed Strike is in 4 disciplines.... (4 feats for +4 damage, though? Gotta be really cheap feats...)

Still, picking a SH maneuver to get later access to air walk or incorporeality is probably a good idea... or some iron heart defense or devoted spirit healing....

[RobbyPants]

There are enough good feats out there, that with enough of them, I think you could limp along.  Casters still get to do all of the really cool stuff, but with enough magic swag, you can play pretend caster enough to try and remain relevant.  This works so long as the player doesn't mind that over 50% of his fighter's effectiveness comes from gear and not his class or feats.

Also, regarding the capstone: I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Really, the game  broke about five levels before that, so it's really hard to make a meaningful capstone.

[Bell]

This works so long as the player doesn't mind that over 50% of his fighter's effectiveness comes from gear and not his class or feats.

It's better than 80% or 90% of his effectiveness coming from gear, though.
Overall, I like the fix. It definitely doesn't address the larger issues, but it's certainly simple, which is always a big plus for me when houseruling.

[Senevri]

I think it would certainly make a fighter tempting to play, just to see what one could pull off with all those feats.... and if the player indeed wanted to keep the simplicity of the fighter, they could just pile on improved natural armor, toughness line or greater resiliency, if they happened to have DR. (would that work with armor training?)

Hey, were the improved toughness feats which appeared in Masters of the Wild ever reprinted in 3.5?

[RobbyPants]

Hey, were the improved toughness feats which appeared in Masters of the Wild ever reprinted in 3.5?

I don't think so.

I think 3.5 went the route of Improved Toughness because no one (normally) has the feats to spare to take Dragon's Toughness ten times.

Of course, if they aren't reprinted, then technically, they're legit.

[raith0]

i think by now we have all figured out that the biggest problem with the fighter and non caster classes is that when they were testing the game and working on the core of the combat mechanics the designers over valued the attack roll and under valued the power of casting spells.  now i think they figured this out and then completely botched it when working on 4th ed. ( last statement is an oppinion not a fact yours may vary ).   

your idea may or may not do a thing at all to fighter i would have to sit down and actually do some tests and see. 

but i  have been working on a slightly more complicated fix to the fighter that gives them combat manuevers and bonuses to them as they level without losing feats all together because i would still like them to be more flexable.  the one major thing is i am not giving them ToB manuevers.  I am talking about things like trip,disarm,bull rush ect all. making them free or swift actions and maybe a few that are imidiate actions.  they are also getting bonuses to them like casters get to caster level or ToB gets IL. 

of course i am working on a almost total rewrite of the system that "balances" the casters and non casters.  the overall thing i am trying to do is give non casters ways of partaking in the action economy war.  witch helps them be less gear dependent they wont be comepletly gear independent but they will have more options without magic items.  casters will probably still be stronger/flashier over all but things will be a bit more inline and monsters will also be getting an slight/gradual uptweak when i am done. 

i will be nerfing some of the things casters can do by removing some of the i can do your job now spells like the polymorph line and i will more than likely get rid of persist spell as it negates a major weakness of casters in having a more limited suply of power or tools over a non casters.  and other slight downtweaks to specific spells in that vain. 

but as for your fix quick and dirty it is. effectivness will vary

ron