Build Help: Dread Necro, equal opportunity advocate.

[zaulsiin]

I've been working on a Dread Necromancer build for a while, but I can't seem to find the right mix of flavor and function, and I was hoping some of y'all could help me out.

The basic premise of the character is a LN Dread Necro who is fighting for equal rights for Undead in a society that keeps the dead man down. An early primary goal would be the founding of an Undead city, hoping to eventually legitimize it to such a degree that the other major communities recognize it as a proper city-state or the like. A potential secondary late-game goal is to manifest Undead traits to such an extent as to become nigh-immortal, akin to becoming a Lich or something similar (the capstone to the Stranger with the Burning Eyes class, for instance).

Here are a couple of builds that I've considered:

Dread Necro^HoH 8 / Baron of the Grave 2 / Shadow Adept^PGtF 10
Dread Necro 8 / Shadow Adept 1 / 1 / Stranger with the Burning Eyes 10
Human Paragon^UA 1 / Dread Necro 8 / Shadow Adept 1 / Human Paragon +2 / Shadow Adept +8
Dread Necro 8 / Shadow Adept 1 / Mindbender^CAr 1 / Incantatrix^PGtF 10 _{This has almost no flavour, and qualifying for Mindbender takes some serious rules gymnastics. Not worth it.}

And some of the major feats I've been thinking about:

Tomb-tainted Soul^LM _{-This one is practically 100%, regardless of the build that I finally use.}
Shadow Weave Magic^PGtF _{-Required for Shadow Adept. Also some really nice boosts to Necro spells.}
Still Spell / Silent Spell _{-Only if going SwtBE.}
Mindsight^LoM _{-Only with Mindbender, obviously}
Child Necromancer _{-Would be fun to play, I think. A 12-year old Lich politician? Win. Doesn't jive with SwtBE, though.}

I'd like to stick with Dread Necro at least to 8, and Shadow Adept 1 gives some huge benefits to Necro spells, so it'd take some convincing to make me forgo that level. Otherwise, I'm open to suggestions. Feats are pretty much wide open until I nail down a build. Race is open too, but I'd like to avoid undead races/Necropolitan template, etc, at least for the first bunch of (~10, or so) levels.

None of the builds that I've come up with quite have the proper feel that I'm looking for, flavorwise, and I've just begun playing D&D in earnest a short time ago, so my optimization skills are pretty weak. I'd like to find a prestige class or flavor-spin of some sort that plays a little more into the politician/revolutionary side of things while still maintaining the shadowy/necro feel. I've checked source books and googled a bunch looking for necromancer- and politician-themed prestige classes, but the vast majority of those that I've found are incredibly underwhelming from an optimization standpoint (hence the repetitious use of Shadow Adept above). I suppose I could just go Dread Necro 20, but that just seems kind of boring, and most of the latter half of the progression is pretty sucky.

Any suggestions at all would be most appreciated. Practically any source is usable, as long as I can make a decent case to the DM, but no flaws/traits. I'll assume starting level of 1 for now, as I don't have any campaign specifics as yet. And I'd like to avoid using Leadership/Undead Leadership, despite the flavor value; I've been using it far too much with my last few characters, and the DM is starting to sour on us using it.
Thanks!

Sourcebook Key:

CAr = Complete Arcane
HoH = Heroes of Horror
LM = Libris Mortis
LoM = Lords of Madness
PGtF = Player's Guide to Faerun
UA = Unearthed Arcana

[archangel.arcanis]

I'd say it is flavorful to let the guy become an undead. Either become a necropolitan early or go into Walker of the Waste to become a dry lich. If you go necropolitan make sure you can train out of tomb tainted soul or skip it and hold out until you can join your advocacy group.

If you want to have an army of undead then the necromancy handbook around here would be a good read for you, even if you don't want the army it probably has a lot of good advice for you.

DN Handbook over at WotC
Port of Necromancy handbook here

[PhaedrusXY]

Can a Dread Necro enter Walker in the Waste? I thought that was a divine only PrC.

I've played a couple of Strangers and have had great fun with the class. If you are particularly careful (you're only paranoid if they're not out to get you...), you can be nearly indestructible even after only 1 level of that. (Of course... once you've paid the price to enter it, I'd definitely consider going further than that...).

Find out how the DM feels an Antimagic Field would interact with the Stranger's Magic Jar ability. That's the biggest danger, depending on how you think it works. Since it says it "suppresses" but doesn't dispel the effect, I think you could argue that it just traps you powerlessly inside whatever body you're inhabiting, and returns control to the creature itself. That's bad enough, but not as bad as if the DM rules that it just outright kills you (which is another way I could see interpreting it...).

If the DM says an AMF won't outright kill you, then get an Item Familiar, and always possess that just before possessing anything else. That way if your current body is killed, or you are otherwise forced out of it, you'll just return to your Item Familiar. Make the Item Familiar innocuous enough, and you should be safe until you can repossess another body. Since it is friendly to you, it should also always be willing to voluntarily fail its saving throw.

Of course, this will limit your use of the Magic Jar ability, but I find in practice that it isn't nearly as useful as an offense as you might think. Many things make the save, which winds up wasting your actions, and if you're hopping around willy-nilly between bodies, you're going to wind up leaving a lot of your gear laying around, and also putting yourself at risk of actually being killed, since you might fail to repossess your last host if your current one gets dropped (or move beyond range of it, etc).

The most practical use of the Magic Jar ability is to permanently possess something physically powerful, like a troll, preferably one you've permanently enslaved somehow like with Necrotic Tumor. That way you get the benefits of replacing your own body, and can also still play it safe with the item familiar as I described above.

[zaulsiin]

I'd say it is flavorful to let the guy become an undead. Either become a necropolitan early or go into Walker of the Waste to become a dry lich. If you go necropolitan make sure you can train out of tomb tainted soul or skip it and hold out until you can join your advocacy group.

Aye, I do plan on becoming undead (or similar) at some point, I'd just like it to happen gradually. Be more of a process than a sudden overnight sort of deal. And his advocacy would bear more weight in the humanoid communities if it comes from one of their own, so I think that's the flavor I'm going for, at least early on. I had forgotten about Walker in the Waste, though, so I'll definitely read through that when I'm back at my books.

If you want to have an army of undead then the necromancy handbook around here would be a good read for you, even if you don't want the army it probably has a lot of good advice for you.

DN Handbook over at WotC
Port of Necromancy handbook here

I've read through the handbooks here and on the old Wizards forums, as well as a couple of other threads on GitP and such, but none of the PrCs that they mention seem to be quite what I'm looking for, with the exceptions of the ones that I've used in the builds above. I briefly entertained the idea of a Prestige Bard or Evangelist or the like, but the loss of casting and the stupid entry pre-reqs made that consideration very short-lived.

As for the "army" point, I'd be leaning more towards getting a couple of stronger bodyguard-style undead to watch my back. I'm not really looking to compel an army of undead to follow me wherever I go. From an adventuring standpoint, it's just much less headache that way, rather than having to worry about the logistics of having 100 some-odd minions cruising around. From a flavor standpoint, he's more of an orator/rabble-rouser than a proper leader/general. Essentially a traveling mouthpiece stirring things up who may eventually wind up as Mayor or something, but that's about it.

Some really good info though, thanks for the reply!

[Saxony]

If you're not going for an army of Undead, there's no reason to take Dread Necromancer. And especially not to 8th level.

Their self healing can be replicated with a cleric spell (I will describe below). Their DR is... DR. You're a spellcaster. DR is not supposed to be your specialty and Dread Necromancer DR is low. They have a limited spell list (ouch!). The only reason not to go Wizard or Cleric instead is their 8th level ability which gives them lots of undead. If you aren't using that, you aren't using Dread Necromancer to its fullest (or really at all).

Awesome healing cleric spell:

There's a cleric spell called Black Sand. It's in the Sandstorm book. It's named after the substance it creates (black sand). It only creates temporary black sand, but if the spell happens to kill someone, it makes real permanent black sand. This is gooooood.

Black sand (the spell and substance) deals 1d4 negative energy every round. Put the permament substance in your boots. Put it in your skellies' boots. Have a jar of it for after the battle. Screw Charnel Touch. The black sand substance will heal you for 2-3 damage on average every round with no action on your part.

Clerics obviously get this spell just as part of their spell list. Anyone else can get a scroll and UMD or get anyone else to UMD it for them. Very simple. You only need one scroll. And then you have permanent Fast Healing 1d4 from the permanent black sand created. Another nice thing is you can make MORE black sand from the permanent black sand you created.

An arcane spellcaster can burn a feat to get it on their spell list (I won't say how, because telling people how to burn feats is bad form).

In conclusion, if you aren't using Undead Mastery to make lots of undead (for any reason, really. 100 level 1 skeletons is great the manual labor required to make an undead city! You aren't required to make an army), then you shouldn't be playing a Dread Necromancer, period.

Anything else does a better job at necromancy, mostly due to the Dread Necromancer's super limited spell list (Necromancy is cool, but Dread Necro's don't have any other spells). The only thing Dread Necromancers do well is making lots of undead. They do that better than anyone else, and probably better than two or three clerics/wizards combined (depending on how much Charisma you have). Otherwise, they're not much.

As for prestige classes, anything that makes Animate Dead free is going to be freakin awesome. Let me tell what those prestige classes are. The Pale Master (Libris Mortis) does this and loses a caster level. It can also only do this once per day (which is annoying, but you can make 2xCL of HD in one casting, so its not too bad). It requires 3rd level arcane spells and a feat burned on Skill Focus (ick!). It requires 8 ranks in Knowledge Religion, so it can be entered at 6th level. There is a better choice.

There is a prestige class from Frank and K's Tome of Necromancy, which you already knew about. Let me point them out the one which grants free Animate Dead.

There's the Corpse Light Whisperer, which gives Animate Dead as a free at-will spell-like ability (meaning NO gold cost). It requires Wild Shape (granted at 5th level of Druid) and can entered at 7th level. Pretty freaking sweet.

I can't think of any more.

An obviously GREAT combination with free Animate Dead is the feat Destructive Retribution (Libris Mortis). It makes undead you've created with necromancy spells explode in negative energy. Negative energy explosions heal your other undead and hurt anyone who kills them.

[JaronK]

Black Sand is an obvious spell to take.  Also, go Necropolitan, get your Wis to 19 (only temporarily is needed), and spell stitch yourself.  Get Animate Dead, Awaken Undead, and Animate Dread Warrior as spell likes.  Now you can create hordes of undead free, and they're actually intelligent (why give rights to things with no minds?). 

JaronK

[zaulsiin]

In conclusion, if you aren't using Undead Mastery to make lots of undead (for any reason, really. 100 level 1 skeletons is great the manual labor required to make an undead city! You aren't required to make an army), then you shouldn't be playing a Dread Necromancer, period.

The Dread Necro's buffed HD limit can be used to create larger undead as well as more undead. I'm simply opting to take a small number of high-HD undead, rather than a large number of low-HD ones. And I kind of want to run with the Dread Necro if only because I've never played a spontaneous caster, and I actually kind of like the simplicity inherent in having such a limited spell list. Weird, I know, but there you go.

As for the Prestige Class suggestions, you've made some good ones. I haven't completely written off the Pale Master, but the entry prereqs require some wasted resources (Skill Focus: K.Religion? Really?) and the loss of a caster level is pretty off-putting. But I'm still thinking this one through.

Corpselight Whisperer I dismissed almost off-handedly, just because of the Wild Shape prerequisite. Not a fan of druids.

Good call on Destructive Retribution, too. That and Nimble Bones are looking pretty good, if I end up climbing the Corpsecrafter ladder.

[zaulsiin]

Black Sand is an obvious spell to take.  Also, go Necropolitan, get your Wis to 19 (only temporarily is needed), and spell stitch yourself.  Get Animate Dead, Awaken Undead, and Animate Dread Warrior as spell likes. 

I'll definitely look into Spell-Stitched; I'm not sure of all the details for it so I'll need to read through it again.
I've forgotten what book Animate Dread Warrior is from. It's a Forgotten Realms setting book, yes? I'll have to Google it when I get home. Good call on Awaken, as well. Definitely a worthwhile Advanced Learning target even if I don't go spell-stitching (assuming that it qualifies; will have to double-check the details when I've got my books handy).

Now you can create hordes of undead free, and they're actually intelligent (why give rights to things with no minds?). 

Why, indeed.

Useful info, as always, JaronK. Thanks.

[PhaedrusXY]

Animate Dread Warrior is in the Unapproachable East FR supplement. You basically bring back a humanoid with all of their class levels intact, but they take a hit to their mental ability scores, a buff to some physical ones, etc. And they're intelligent but under your complete control. There is no limit to how many you can make, but the spell normally carries a hefty XP penalty (which of course you can avoid with Spellstitching...).

[fuinjutsu]

As for the Prestige Class suggestions, you've made some good ones. I haven't completely written off the Pale Master, but the entry prereqs require some wasted resources (Skill Focus: K.Religion? Really?) and the loss of a caster level is pretty off-putting. But I'm still thinking this one through.

Fane of the Fog God.  Get that skill focus for free.  Also, it's also a prereq for Divine Oracle, which is a great dip class for 2-3 levels.  Discover the future and have your undead army ready for whatever comes.  No more DM sinking your Undead army with surprise gimmicks!

[Tenebrous Apostate]

Let me suggest my personal favorite: Take a level or 2 as a Binder and go for Anima Mage with Fell anything as your metamagic feat. With your high Charisma, social skills and the right Vestige Dracula will have nothing on you as a charmer and diplomat. Also use planar binding to call, kill and subsequently (did I spell this right?) animate a fiend (Kokrachon from BoVD is my favorite) as a corpse creature so u re never are alone in tough negotiations. If, or better yet, when you become undead convince your DM to allow you to take the Swarmshifter template (grovel a little if need be, the tables will turn soon enough). And take Undead leadership! You'll be the mayor of a village down the cost in no time

[Saxony]

Let me suggest my personal favorite: Take a level or 2 as a Binder and go for Anima Mage with Fell anything as your metamagic feat.

Anima Mage is in Tome of Magic and so is Binder.

Anima Mage requires 2nd level vestiges (like spells but different). So that's 3 levels in the Binder class or 1 level in the Binder class and then taking the Improved Binding feat (Tome of Magic) to get access to 2nd level vestiges early.

I think taking a good feat is better than losing two caster levels, personally.

Anima Mage is pretty good. You can get free metamagic. As the above member posted, Fell Animate (Libris Mortis) works well for free Animate Dead.

...

Damn you, Tenebrous Apostate! I can't have a discussion on Tome of Magic Prestige Classes and use your name, too

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I've been working on a Dread Necromancer build for a while, but I can't seem to find the right mix of flavor and function, and I was hoping some of y'all could help me out.

The basic premise of the character is a LN Dread Necro who is fighting for equal rights for Undead in a society that keeps the dead man down. An early primary goal would be the founding of an Undead city, hoping to eventually legitimize it to such a degree that the other major communities recognize it as a proper city-state or the like. A potential secondary late-game goal is to manifest Undead traits to such an extent as to become nigh-immortal, akin to becoming a Lich or something similar (the capstone to the Stranger with the Burning Eyes class, for instance).

Have you considered prestige classing into rainbow servant?  That would give you some degree of legitimacy (non-chaotic/non-evil), as well as a lot of additional versatility.  It can be done from level 1 with the right feats.

Versatile spellcaster + Heighten spell lets you burn two first level slots and cast a second level spell (heightened first level spells are crappy second levels spells, which triggers the dread necromancer's learning mechanic and gives him knowledge of non-crappy second level spells).  Which is cool (I've played it), but not overly game breaking.

If taint rules are allowed, once you become a necropolitan (and get drained back to level 1) you can get Eldritch Corruption as a taint bonus feat.  That gives you access to third level spells (heighten a first level spell twice), and therefore entry into rainbow servant.

[weenog]

If taint rules are allowed, once you become a necropolitan (and get drained back to level 1) you can get Eldritch Corruption as a taint bonus feat.  That gives you access to third level spells (heighten a first level spell twice), and therefore entry into rainbow servant.

Can't you accomplish more or less the same thing with Sanctum Spell?  Although you might need to stay home till you can naturally cast 2nd-level spells unless you want your class features to shut down for losing prerequisites, depending on how strict the DM's being.

[Tenebrous Apostate]

Let me suggest my personal favorite: Take a level or 2 as a Binder and go for Anima Mage with Fell anything as your metamagic feat.

Anima Mage is in Tome of Magic and so is Binder.

Anima Mage requires 2nd level vestiges (like spells but different). So that's 3 levels in the Binder class or 1 level in the Binder class and then taking the Improved Binding feat (Tome of Magic) to get access to 2nd level vestiges early.

I think taking a good feat is better than losing two caster levels, personally.

Anima Mage is pretty good. You can get free metamagic. As the above member posted, Fell Animate (Libris Mortis) works well for free Animate Dead.

...

Damn you, Tenebrous Apostate! I can't have a discussion on Tome of Magic Prestige Classes and use your name, too

To true.. Sorry for the inconvinience
You're right about the anima mage OFC. I was not thinking steight at 3:30 in the morning (still aren't). My idea was taking Like DN8\Binder1\Anima Mage10\whatever1. Take Fell animate or Fell weaken as a metamagic feat (although any of the Fell metamagics, exept Frighten maby is a solid choice) and then Improved Binding to avoid more taking more than 1 level of Binder. Other than that and the Tomb Tainted Soul (wich you'll retrain if\when you become undead) you can take feats that make you good at Perform. The Vestiges will do the talking for you in social encounters

[zaulsiin]

Can a Dread Necro enter Walker in the Waste? I thought that was a divine only PrC.

Unfortunately you do, in fact, need access to divine spells. "Ability to cast at least three spells of the Sand or Thirst domain as divine spells."

Have you considered prestige classing into rainbow servant?  That would give you some degree of legitimacy (non-chaotic/non-evil), as well as a lot of additional versatility.  It can be done from level 1 with the right feats.

Is Rainbow Servant really worthwhile? You lose a lot of (arcane) casting progression in exchange for some pretty bad domains (even trading out for Devotion feats) and some wings. Sure, you eventually get the whole Cleric list (which, granted, is amazing), but that's a long way off without early qualification shenanigans. Besides, the DM that I'm working with is heavily invested in flavor and storytelling, so he would definitely enforce the "hidden jungle temples of the Couatls" prerequisite, and there's no guarantee that he'd bother including such a site in his campaign world. In fact in this particular instance, I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't, if only because Couatls involve Psionics and that's an aspect that's going to be downplayed, if not removed entirely, in this campaign (incidentally, the same goes for the Taint mechanic).

Fane of the Frog God.  Get that skill focus for free. 

This is a good find. I'd forgotten about the special locations in Complete Scoundrel. But again, no guarantee that the DM would plop such a landmark into the middle of his world. I'll have to talk to him.

Let me suggest my personal favorite: Take a level or 2 as a Binder and go for Anima Mage with Fell anything as your metamagic feat. With your high Charisma, social skills and the right Vestige Dracula will have nothing on you as a charmer and diplomat.

I honestly hadn't even considered Binder as an option, and I can't for the life of me remember why. But this is sounding like a really good call. It can have a sufficiently dark feel when necessary, while also boosting my social skills, etc (depending on the vestige, of course). And if I make a bad pact, well, who's gonna bat an eye at another inconsistent schizophrenic/duplicitous politician? Granted, that might hurt my platform a little bit, but that's something to worry about in-game. Hmm... Dread Necro 8/Binder 1/Shadow Adept 1/Anima Mage 10? Only lose 1 caster level, maintain the necro theme, and gain some social benefits as well. Something to seriously consider. I'm not at all familiar with the vestige specifics though, having never played a Binder, so I'll need to do a lot of research.

Other than that and the Tomb Tainted Soul (wich you'll retrain if\when you become undead) ...

I spoke to the DM last night, and he put the kibosh on any sort of retraining. I _might_ be able to talk my way around it if I come up with a convincing story reason for why I've lost Tomb-tainted and suddenly gained something else entirely, but that seems unlikely.

You guys have given me a ton of good info to look into, so far. Thanks!

[zaulsiin]

Question: Is Fell Animate actually a worthwhile feat investment, given the Dread Necromancer's spell list? They don't have many spells at all that deal actual hp damage outside of the inflict line, and Fell Animate specifically requires a damaging spell to be effective. With its +3 level bump, it doesn't really seem like it'd be the best choice.

[PhaedrusXY]

Question: Is Fell Animate actually a worthwhile feat investment, given the Dread Necromancer's spell list? They don't have many spells at all that deal actual hp damage outside of the inflict line, and Fell Animate specifically requires a damaging spell to be effective. With its +3 level bump, it doesn't really seem like it'd be the best choice.

You use it on a cantrip to Coup De Grace incapacitated enemies, and save onyx. That's about all it's good for.

I prefer Fell Drain to make wights, which you can then rebuke. Then your controlled wights can make some more wights, which they control, and so on...

[Felix Underwood]

I spoke to the DM last night, and he put the kibosh on any sort of retraining. I _might_ be able to talk my way around it if I come up with a convincing story reason for why I've lost Tomb-tainted and suddenly gained something else entirely, but that seems unlikely.

You guys have given me a ton of good info to look into, so far. Thanks!

Is your DM ok with psionics?  Hiring an NPC to cast Psychic Reformation on you can do the trick.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Aren't there both psychic and non-psychic coatls?

And I think you just have to find their temple.  Make your backstory something like, "when I found the ancient ruins and started reading the ancient runes I had an epiphany, and realized in the value of equality of all sentients" or something.

EDIT: And the table for rainbow servant is in error.  The text says it's a full progression class, and when there's a dispute the text is considered to be the primary source.

And don't knock good domain.  Magic circle against evil saved my party.