On lich style suck, and the fixing thereof.

[Straw_Man]

You don't have to epic to get 9th level spells with +4 LA as far as I know you can still buy off one of those levels before 20th (16th ECL) so you still could get 9th level spells with most spellcasters before epic.

Hmm, this is true, if you play with that rule. It's still not canon, though it's an excellent rule used by most groups.

[ninjarabbit]

Liches make interesting duskblades, hexblades, assassins (liches get a +8 racial bonus to a bunch of sneaky-type skills), warlocks, rangers, or even evil paladins. Granted you'll need the practiced spellcaster feat for most of those classes but the +4 LA doesn't hurt those classes as much as the pure spellcasters.

[SorO_Lost]

Does a lich need to be fixed if its useful to non pure casters? The best combination I've gotten is an effective DC 46 paralyze with three touch attacks per round. Lich is deadly if you think outside the box and to me, just because it don't work well with a wizard does not mean it sucks.

[Straw_Man]

It's fluff is very caster focused and you can't become one till you are an 11th level caster. For a normal caster after reaching lvl 11 your role is caster.

 Interesting idea though, I once had decent fun with a Assassin Lich via Practiced Spellcaster though the Death Attacks DC's just sucked. It'd be interesting to try it with a Hexblade. I'm curious how you got a DC 46 for paralysis.

[ninjarabbit]

I wonder if a DM would allow a lich's touch attacks to be channeled via the duskblade's arcane channeling, makes things more interesting.

[PhaedrusXY]

I think a blackguard with Practiced Spellcaster could make a decent lich. Assassin sounds like it could work well, also.

[Sinfire Titan]

I wonder if a DM would allow a lich's touch attacks to be channeled via the duskblade's arcane channeling, makes things more interesting.

No, only spells. SLAs and Su abilities can't be transfered through it, though I can see a feat that would allow it.

[SorO_Lost]

I'm curious how you got a DC 46 for paralysis.

Effective DC 46.

Hexblade 4 / Binder 5 / Blackguard 7 / Lich 4
Cha: 38 = 18 (base) + 2 (age) + 2 (lich) + 5 (level) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enchantment).
DC: 40 = 10 (based) + 8 (1/2hd) + 14 (cha) + 2 (ability focus) + 4 (improved paralysis, LM) + 2 (veil of allure, SS).
Dark Familiar (hexblade) + Aura of Despair (blackguard) + Aura of Sadness (focalor) = -6 penalty to saves.

Go lich as a blackguard using practiced spellcaster.

Edit - The above build is under the concept that Paladin of Tranny & Chupoclops aura of despair does not stack with each other nor does it use fear for an extra -2. It is a clean cut no 'but X says it won't work" build that only assumes a blackguard's cl is equal to his level. Also Snap Kick can be picked up for a 4th attack I think.

[PhaedrusXY]

It is a clean cut no 'but X says it won't work" build that only assumes a blackguard's cl is equal to his level.

You don't even have to assume that. Just take Practiced Spellcaster (Blackguard).

[chibishuffle]

There's alot of talk about Martial undead characters isn't that what the death knight is for?  I know this thread started out about the lich but it seems to be taking a martial turn so I have to ask what about the death knight? As a small note death knight template can be found in the MM2 or in the dragonlance campaign setting.

[PhaedrusXY]

The death knight template sucks. Badly.

[Irthos Levethix]

What about the Incantifier, from Joda's thread?  I would really like to see this class tweaked a bit, as it seems really interesting.  Perhaps adding a couple more requirements to be able to drop the 120k ritual cost?  The idea of a PrC that gives you lich-ish abilities (okay, so you're just immortal, but that's fuckin cool, man!) instead of having to take a huge LA for it is pretty awesome, but the loss of caster levels and the high gp cost for entry is lame. 

Maybe having steal spell as a requirement?  It certainly goes along with the flavor of the class, and WotC's idea of making very class-specific PrCs (I'm looking at you, Daggerspell Shapers and Fochlochan Lyrists)

[Sunic_Flames]

Same problem but worse. (lots of new weaknesses, not so much new strengths)

[Irthos Levethix]

What are the new weaknesses?  You don't actually become undead, so there's no worry of being turned or all that.  You're only real weakness (albeit, a fairly large one) is that you only heal via absorbing spells, but then again, you can cast them on yourself.  Hello, new use of wands and/or scrolls.  As for that, I'm still for changing the SR to 10+CL, to make it actually worthwhile.  I'm not sure what would balance out making it a full-casting progression class, though.

[Sunic_Flames]

The no efficient healing is huge. For example a pretty standard immortality tactic involves Revivify and Heal + Craft Contingent... oops, that doesn't work anymore. Funny thing? You can do that over 2 dozen times for the cost of that 120k item. And no CL loss either.

[Irthos Levethix]

But this thread is supposed to be about fixing the suckiness of lich-style suck, not just bitching about it.  Howbout a proposed fix to the cost of the stupid ritual?  You gotta admit, the whole super-evil undead wizard thing has alot of flavor, and could work well mechanically, but doesn't as is.  So, how do we make it actually worth playing?

I would actually be willing to take the no effecient healing thing, and that in itself should pay for full casting progression, in addition to the bonus feats and whatnot.  The question is, how do you reduce/eliminate the insane cost of that ritual to make it viable for the PCs?

[Straw_Man]

...

  The MM Lich is a GM tool, make a spellcaster tough enough to take a party in a fight. Using Necropolitan as a template, sprinkle some stat mods, turn resistance, maybe a DR or attack for flavour - that would be a LA 1 or 2 template.

  This is all I have as a fix. Systemheads want to make this a pointbuy appropriate for LA?

[Sunic_Flames]

That's why this thread exists.

There was some super lich thing somewhere. Dicefreaks? *shrugs*

[PhaedrusXY]

Dicefreaks has a few variant lich templates. I'm sure they're better than the MM version.

Edit: Looks like they finally have a new site up and running. Here is a link to the lich stuff: http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14

[SorO_Lost]

But this thread is supposed to be about fixing the suckiness of lich-style suck, not just bitching about it.

Irthos, lich is can be an awesome template for melee based casters, which is a massive point into its self debunking this idea the template sucks (title change please).

What you want is fixes so you can play a lich as a wizard. I say lower the LA to +3 and allow LA buy off. There, it works fine for full casters, no over thinking needed at all. So you can set up some loophole way to come back to life twice for 120k, whoop-di-do. Die four times and lich has already saved to 120k, die six times and its saved you 240k, and so on. Try thinking of years down the road of unlife, because that is what lichdom is about.

If you want to change what the template grants so you can have super undead powers. Post a thread title 'help me create a super necropolition template' in another sub-forum instead.

Edit - Undead boosters for that super necropolition idea

Spells
Desecrate - +2 hp per HD

Feats
Corpsecrafter (LM) - +4 enchantment str and +2 hp per HD
Bolster Resistance (LM) - +4 turn resistance
Deadly Chill (LM) - +1d6 cold damage on melee attacks
Destruction Retribution (LM) - blows up on death.
Hardened Flesh (LM) - +2 natural armor
Nimble Bones (LM) - +4 to initiative & +10 ft./round.
Graveborn Warrior (Dragon #312) - one extra feat, +1 effective HD & +25gp.
Graveborn Expert (Dragon #312) - +4 on any one str or dex skill, +1 effective HD.
Death Curse (Dragon #312) - blows up on death.
Heightened Agility (Dragon #312) - +4 dex, +1 effective HD & +25gp.
Heightened Strength (Dragon #312) - +4 str, +1 effective HD & +25gp.
Improved Animation (Dragon #298) - one extra HD & +1 competence attack & damage.