Help Optimizing an "Anti-Paladin" Type

[Cuindless]

A published campaign I've been running for 3 years is coming to a close as the PCs track down and destroy the last remaining members of a sinister cabal of demon summoners, and I'm out of ideas for one of the final bad guys. He's supposed to be an "anti-paladin" type, and he's written as a Cleric6/Fighter2/Blackguard10 with some pretty crappy feat selection (Improved Critical: Bastard Sword? Iron Will? Persuasive?). The PCs are fairly well optimized with a few misfired ideas that they're retraining out. As written, this guy would only be a speed bump. I've optimized mostly spellcasters and the occasional rogue, but I'm at a loss as to how to optimize this melee opponent. They've already encountered a DMM Cleric, and I don't want to get repetitive. They've also encountered a Lion Totem Barbarian / Frenzied Berserker and a Chain Tripping Fighter, so those are out too. I'm reluctant to dip into Tome of Battle only because the PCs haven't in spite of my telling them that they should. I probably will for this build. I was initially thinking of an Ex-Paladin8/Blackguard10, but after statting it out decided that it looked really suboptimal. He's going to use 32 point buy. We're using all the 3.5 books and Forgotten Realms books but no Eberron/Dragonlance or other non-FR setting specific books. Also, no Unearthed Arcana. Everything else is fair game.

I'm thinking that some combination of Crusader and a PrC of some kind might be good, but I am seriously at a loss. Any ideas?

[Jopustopin]

In this battle will he be by himself?  If so I would seriously consider finding a way to give him Iron Heart Surge.

[Dragonamedrake]

Ask and ye shale receive...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8253.0

Just reflavor for your game. If you really want to make him a bitch give him rings of elemental immunity fire and acid.

Basically you get...
16 BAB and 9th lvl Divine spellcasting.

12 + Cha x 4 Rebuke attempts without a single Nightstick(Unless I read something wrong).

Regeration 1... which turns all damage other than fire or acid into subdual damage... exept you are immune to subdual damage. So you are immune to HP damage other than acid or fire.

2x your Cha bonus to saves

Counterspell any spell as an immediate action once per round

Immunity to all HP damage other than acid/fire, DR 2/ Bludgeoning, Immune to Crit/Sa, Immune to Poison, Sleep effects, Paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, and death from massive damage.

Full cleric casting, any cleric spell you want to persist on yourself. Also you rebuke as a 18th lvl cleric unless my math is wrong. Not to shaby.

Mettle and a Ring of Evasion allows you to never take any secondary affect from a spell you save against. A High Charisma and a +6 Cha Item should be there. Nightsticks are nice along with all the other really nice cleric items Im sure most of you are familiar with.

[Widow]

Hmm, not as powerful as the above post, but I always liked the idea of going Blackguard 22.  The epic book says epic paladins that fall can convert as many levels to blackguard as they like.

level 22 will net you 7d6 sneak attack dice, 4 bonus epic feats plus you level 21 feat.  Throw in necropolitian if you want to be undead and some spell stiching.  There is also the Battle arms spell from dragon magazine number #356 that will grant him 4 extra arms, use savage species rules to use all 6 arms on one weapon to add you str mod in 3.5 times to damage.  It is still not as powerful as a straight up cleric, but fits your blackguard theme.

[carnivore]

try this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7471.0

lots of Fun, and very deceptive .... could even pretend she was a captured and Tortured Paladin for the surprise Value

 

[Ivory Knight]

You can always go Cleric 4/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight 10/Crusader +1(take at the end to get higher level maneuvers & 1 stance)
Just reflavor the PrC from Wee Jas to some Faerunian Deity(Shar maybe?)
Complete Champion has a PrC, that can channel spells(like the Duskblade). Can't remember the Name, was originally designed to worship Hextor.

The Death Knight template(MM II, or some Dragonlance book) can also provide for a memorable villain, flavor to taste.

Do you need the Guy to be good at Melee?
A Dread Necromancer(his Aura gives the better part of Courage^^) going for Fear effects could also fit the Anti-Paladin.

[AngellusMortus]

A very fun, flavorful villain might actually be the character I'm currently playing in an evil campaign. The Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC from Complete Adventurer is amazing for the Fallen Paladin route, because A) the class is very interesting (zealots who believe it's okay to sacrifice the innocent to prevent evil) and has the potential to be TERRIFYING if Fallen, and B) Shadowbane levels stack with Paladin levels to determine what Blackguard bonuses you get for Falling, but you don't actually lose any of your Shadowbane abilities for turning evil, as the first level ability Conviction lets you keep them no matter what. This can get you a pretty crazy Sneak Attack, 4th level Blackguard spells, and a high BAB. Build would be something like...

Rogue 2/Paladin 4/Shadowbane Inquisitor 8, then at this point become a Blackguard and convert all of those paladin levels to Blackguard, ending as a
Rogue 2/Shadowbane Inquisitor 8/Blackguard 10. +19 BAB, 4th level Blackguard Spells  which can be DMMed (though you mentioned not wanting to do that,) a Smite that can be used on anyone, and 7d6 Sneak Attack.

If you wanted to do something really bizarre, the character I'm playing is actually a slight alternate of the above because I wanted to do something slightly different...He's actually a Rogue 2/Shadowbane Inquisitor 7/Blackguard 7/Lich +4 LA. This knocks you down to +15 BAB (though if you go epic one level, you'll get that last BAB), 4th Level Blackguard Spells, and 6d6s Sneak Attack, PLUS he's an undead, incorporating all the immunities and bonuses that includes. You can DMM the 3rd level Blackguard spell Fangs of the Vampire King (SpC) to get a free Natural Attack, which the Lich can channel his Paralyzing Touch ability through. A Full Attack would be 3 Power Attacked swings from some scary 2hander, Sneak Attack damage (this guy actually has great hide/move silently, and can summon things to flank) followed by a Negative Energy bite from the fangs that drain 1 Constitution and forces a DC 31 Fort Save or they're paralyzed. (10+ 1/2HD (8) + 13, assuming a 36 CHA). Throw a ring of Positive Energy Immunity on him to be really unpleasant.

[Cuindless]

@Dragonamedrake: So... Flaws are from UA and Bone Knight is from Eberron. It's a great build, but it violates the rules I set in the OP.

@Carnivore: That's an impressive build also, but it isn't quite what I'm looking for. I'm thinking more "big and mean" as opposed to "small and deceptively awesome". Besides, the build has Flaws and the Paladin of Tyranny from UA. I can't use it. Thank you anyway.

@Widow: I only have 18 levels to play with.

How's this for a starting build?

Corrupted CE Human Ex-Paladin5/PiousTemplar10

S14 D12 C14 I8 W14 Ch16 (starting)
S20 D16 C20 I8 W18 Ch 24 (after levelling, items and buffs)

Variant Abilities: Charging Smite, Holy Warrior

Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), True Believer, Awesome Smite, Martial Study - Foehammer, Martial Stance - Martial Spirit, Martial Study - Doom Charge, Divine Might, Bonus: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Bonus: Improved Initiative, Bonus: Power Attack, Bonus: Improved Smite

Template - Corrupted (Book of Vile Darkness): +4 Natural Armor, DR 10/+3 (how do I convert that to 3.5 rules?), Fast Healing 7.

I feel like this is an *okay* build, but I'm a bit out of my element. I'm just throwing in feats that I think are interesting rather than having any sort of plan or goal. Any thoughts?

[Cuindless]

@IvoryKnight - That's not a bad idea. The character as written worships Cyric, but I can easily convert the RKV to that.

@AngellusMortus - That's a really nice build. I might try something like that. I'll keep working on it.

[Sohala]

Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Cleric 2/Fighter 2/Ordained Champion 2/Blackguard 3/Warblade 1/RKV 7

1 Lion Totem Barbarian - Power Attack
2 Cleric (rebuke dragons) - War & something traded off at 6
3 Fighter - Improved Sunder - Extra Turning
4 Fighter - Cleave
5 Cleric
6 Ordained Champion - Martial Study (Foe Hammer) - Martial Stance (Martial Spirit) - Extra Turning
7 Ordained Champion
8 Blackguard
9 Warblade - Extra Turning
10 Blackguard
11 Blackguard
12 RKV - Extra Turning
13 RKV
14 RKV
15 RKV - Extra Turning
16 RKV
17 RKV
18 RKV - Extra Turning

He has 30 turns to kill the party (without factoring in stats). 

[Cuindless]

@Sohala - What's all the extra turning for?

[Sohala]

Cleric and Blackguard both have turning pools, both will gain 4 from each feat, which we then funnel into RKV to gain swift actions and recover WRT.

[ninjarabbit]

duskblade3/hexblade2/ur-priest10/hierophant3

[Cuindless]

@Sohala: Ah. Got it.

@NinjaRabbit: Can you give me an idea of what the character can do and what feats it might have?

[Tethlis]

I have always found this build intriguing.  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871422/Feral_Dreadlord:_SA,_TWF,_9th_Level_Maneuvers,_SAD_in_one_package

[carnivore]

@Carnivore: That's an impressive build also, but it isn't quite what I'm looking for. I'm thinking more "big and mean" as opposed to "small and deceptively awesome". Besides, the build has Flaws and the Paladin of Tyranny from UA. I can't use it. Thank you anyway.

you are welcome ... will adjust and try with something different .... but ninjarabbits build: duskblade 3/ hexblade 2/ ur-priest 10/ hierophant 3 is very Strong ... and Simple

 

[bearchucks]

duskblade3/hexblade2/ur-priest10/hierophant3

A quick rundown of the stuff I know:

PHBII-- Duskblade 3: Full BAB, d8 HD, Armored Mage (Light), Arcane Channeling (Cast a touch spell into your weapon and deliver it via melee weapon attack as a standard action)

Complete Warrior: Hexblade 2: Full BAB, d10 HD, Hexblade's Curse (-2 to pretty much everything), Arcane Resistance (+Cha to saves vs. spells or SLAs)

Complete Divine: Ur-Priest 10: 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, 9th level cleric spells (not as many, but one's enough)

caster level shenanigans ("To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes) Hexblade, Duskblade, and Hierophant all count making your ur-priest caster level...2.5(Hex+Dusk)+3(Hierophant advances divine casting class's caster level) + 1.5(?) (Uncertain whether hierophant counts as a 'spellcasting class')

Rebuke Undead (powering divine feats i.e. Divine Persist), SR 20 vs. Divine spells and spells/SLAs of Outsiders,

may shuffle spell slots a tiny bit (dunno how much use this sees--add the sac'd spell slots together and cut them in 3/4 and you get your new free spell slot; a pair of 6th level spells for a 9th level, all your duskblade slots for something higher)

Steal Spell-Like Ability: 1/day if within 50 feet of something with SLAs, you may copy that ability and use it yourself.

DMG: Hierophant 3: d8 HD 1/2 This hidden little gem: Divine Reach.  Touch spells become range 30 feet.  May be taken again for 60 feet.  The last level...umm, Spell-Like Ability?



In short, you have a character that can throw 9th level cleric touch spells from 60 feet away.  Or channel them through a weapon.  They've got Rebuking, decent fort and will saves (if I recall properly everything), large-ish HD...the applications are nigh-endless.

[Dragonamedrake]

@Dragonamedrake: So... Flaws are from UA and Bone Knight is from Eberron. It's a great build, but it violates the rules I set in the OP.

Ahh will you dont need the flaws to make the build work but if your not using Eberron then that does present a problem as Bone Knight is pretty important for the build. However if your the DM a little reflavoring and you got it.

Im also giving a thumbs up to duskblade3/hexblade2/ur-priest10/hierophant3 from Ninjarabbit. Simple and effective.

[AngellusMortus]

Gotta admit, I like ninjarabbits build as well...though frankly, I cringe at any build that involves Ur-Priest. That class is so hilarious, utterly broken, it's not even funny. Hard to conceptualize any divine based optimized build that couldn't be better with a little Ur-Priest thrown in. 

[Sohala]

I have to agree, I think Ur-priest makes everything better. I give you build #2, now with twice as many turning pools and 7th level spells.

Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Dread Necromancer 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/RKV 7/Blackguard 3

1 Fighter - Power Attack - Iron Will
2 Cleric (rebuke dragons) - Undeath & something
3 Psychic Warrior - Cleave - Spell Focus (evil)
4 Psychic Warrior - Martial Study (Foe Hammer)
5 Dread Necromancer
6 Ur-Priest - Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)
7 Ur-Priest
8 Warblade
9 RKV - Improved Sunder
10 RKV
11 Blackguard
12 Blackguard - Extra Turning
13 Blackguard
14 RKV
15 RKV - Extra Turning
16 RKV
17 RKV
18 RKV - Extra Turning

He has 52 turns to kill the party.