How to (ab)use Thrallherd for fun and profit?

[McPoyo]

And you can't use a standard as a swift.

The primary confusion, from what I can tell, comes from the Master of Shadows PrC in Tome of Magic.  They start out being able to use Master's Bidding as a move action and it later gets upgraded to a Swift, but you can still use it as a move action if you so desire.

So, while I agree that you should be able to use a standard action to deliver a swift, by the rules, you cannot.

Depending on whether or not your DM rules a quickened spells 1/rd limitation to be due to a pre-swift action issue, vs a hard "only 1 per round, no matter what", it makes spellcasting without provoking kind of eeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Chilastra022]

Though its not legal by raw, the way its ruled its like saying you can take a standard action that takes 3 seconds to perform, as opposed to a swift action that takes 1 second to perform (shrug). Which is a little silly anyway. But eh, up to GM ruling i guess. either way its not a big deal, if your schism half cant manifest it you can. Its not as advantageous but its a small price to pay for godhood? hehe. Theres also quite a few monsters that can fill the role of schism if you can find one and fuse with it.

[Azrael]

I interpret it in the same manner: a swift can be converted into a standard as long as you don't use any other swifts (as per the logical interpretation of the time it takes to take a swift action in the description).

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

[jojolagger]

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

Nice catch on the elans w/o ML.
Also, remember to bind Tenebrous for free turn attempts.

[LargePrime]

I interpret it in the same manner: a swift can be converted into a standard as long as you don't use any other swifts (as per the logical interpretation of the time it takes to take a swift action in the description).

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

[snakeman830]

I interpret it in the same manner: a swift can be converted into a standard as long as you don't use any other swifts (as per the logical interpretation of the time it takes to take a swift action in the description).

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

Elans have no racial SLA's.  They have three racial Supernatural abilities.

[LargePrime]

I interpret it in the same manner: a swift can be converted into a standard as long as you don't use any other swifts (as per the logical interpretation of the time it takes to take a swift action in the description).

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

Elans have no racial SLA's.  They have three racial Supernatural abilities.

The MM1p313 considers Psionic abilities SLA's as I read it.  And SLAs have a Caster Level of HD.  ML in the case of psionics.
If you read it differently let me know.

[jojolagger]

I interpret it in the same manner: a swift can be converted into a standard as long as you don't use any other swifts (as per the logical interpretation of the time it takes to take a swift action in the description).

So my character usually uses his schismed mind to manifest the temporal reiteration. However, you can easily give up your swift actions as a character and just manifest it every round as normal. The only time it will interfere with your actions is when you take an immediate action. Since my character is (or will be shortly, as soon as I update him) fused with an RKV this problem becomes irrelevant.

Also, Elans are not limited by ML for using their racial powers...what if you were playing an Elan that didn't have ML's? Would you not be able to manifest the power? Certainly not...Is the Elan in the back of the book with the rest of the monsters (one that has no ML) unable to use its racial powers? Certainly not...

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

Elans have no racial SLA's.  They have three racial Supernatural abilities.

The MM1p313 considers Psionic abilities SLA's as I read it.  And SLAs have a Caster Level of HD.  ML in the case of psionics.
If you read it differently let me know.

That's a moot point, as Elans lack SLA's or PLA's, they only have SU abilities.

[LargePrime]

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

Elans have no racial SLA's.  They have three racial Supernatural abilities.

The MM1p313 considers Psionic abilities SLA's as I read it.  And SLAs have a Caster Level of HD.  ML in the case of psionics.
If you read it differently let me know.

That's a moot point, as Elans lack SLA's or PLA's, they only have SU abilities.

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

[jojolagger]

I think the MM1 says racial SLA's have a "caster level" of HD.  Thus the Elan always has a ML of HD.

Elans have no racial SLA's.  They have three racial Supernatural abilities.

The MM1p313 considers Psionic abilities SLA's as I read it.  And SLAs have a Caster Level of HD.  ML in the case of psionics.
If you read it differently let me know.

That's a moot point, as Elans lack SLA's or PLA's, they only have SU abilities.

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

1. Changelings don't actually have a CL for minor change shape.
2. Elans specify they don't manifest powers w/o levels in a manifesting class.

[PhaedrusXY]

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

That statement is contradictory. I don't know if the Minor Shape Change description is contradictory or not, but something can't both be a Supernatural ability and a Spell-like Ability. They are entirely different things.

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

See here.

[jojolagger]

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

That statement is contradictory. I don't know if the Minor Shape Change description is contradictory or not, but something can't both be a Supernatural ability and a Spell-like Ability. They are entirely different things.

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

See here.

It isn't considered a SLA, Large Prime just saw mimicking the spell disguise self and assumed it was also a SLA.

[Littha]

The Elan racial powers don't have effects dependent on manifester level... this argument makes no sense to me.

[LargePrime]

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

That statement is contradictory. I don't know if the Minor Shape Change description is contradictory or not, but something can't both be a Supernatural ability and a Spell-like Ability. They are entirely different things.

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

See here.

It isn't considered a SLA, Large Prime just saw mimicking the spell disguise self and assumed it was also a SLA.

Close.  I was remembering they worked the same.  I mistated and forgot specifically why.
"Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."  From the link PhaedrusXY gave and MM1p315
So Elans have a ML, right?

1. Changelings don't actually have a CL for minor change shape.
2. Elans specify they don't manifest powers w/o levels in a manifesting class.

1) Given the above, I guess they do, Right?
2) I cannot find this in the description in Elans, but I seem to be missing a lot of things.

[jojolagger]

Changelings "Minor Change Shape" is SU and considered a SLA (with CL = HD).  Why should a Elans not be?

That statement is contradictory. I don't know if the Minor Shape Change description is contradictory or not, but something can't both be a Supernatural ability and a Spell-like Ability. They are entirely different things.

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

See here.

It isn't considered a SLA, Large Prime just saw mimicking the spell disguise self and assumed it was also a SLA.

Close.  I was remembering they worked the same.  I mistated and forgot specifically why.
"Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."  From the link PhaedrusXY gave and MM1p315
So Elans have a ML, right?

No that makes elans have CL.

[veekie]

"Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."  From the link PhaedrusXY gave and MM1p315
So Elans have a ML, right?

Effective Caster Level =/= Caster Level
Effective Caster Level for an effect is only used in contesting effects for that specific effect and does not relate to manifester level, i.e. an illusion wrecking effect that depends on the CL of the illusion.

[LargePrime]

"A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. The word “level” in the power lists always refers to manifester level." EXPH
So I guess they have both.

[PhaedrusXY]

"Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."  From the link PhaedrusXY gave and MM1p315
So Elans have a ML, right?

Effective Caster Level =/= Caster Level
Effective Caster Level for an effect is only used in contesting effects for that specific effect and does not relate to manifester level, i.e. an illusion wrecking effect that depends on the CL of the illusion.

Actually I don't buy that argument. At all. If the ability has an "effective" CL, then per transparency it should be limited by that as far as how many PPs the Elan can spend on it. That's a hell of a lot more balanced than having it totally uncapped, and I'm glad there is a RAW way to justify interpreting it that way.

[LargePrime]

"Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."  From the link PhaedrusXY gave and MM1p315
So Elans have a ML, right?

Effective Caster Level =/= Caster Level
Effective Caster Level for an effect is only used in contesting effects for that specific effect and does not relate to manifester level, i.e. an illusion wrecking effect that depends on the CL of the illusion.

I know this is off topic, but is this in the RAW?

[Amechra]

Here, straight from the SRD:


ELANS
• –2 Charisma
• Aberration: Elans are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, elans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Elan base land speed is 30 feet.
• Elans (unlike most aberrations) do not have darkvision.
• Naturally Psionic: Elans gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
• Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action.
• Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends.
• Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Elans’ past lives expose them to wide ranges of language.
• Favored Class: Psion.
• Level Adjustment: +0.



I've highlighted the relevant abilities. There is no comment on limitations of the shielding effect.