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Author Topic: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round  (Read 27064 times)
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Garryl
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« on: May 28, 2010, 07:25:01 PM »

The Idiot Crusader, a Crusader with more maneuvers readied than known who refreshes them every round.

Build progression:
Some sort of Elf for race
Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warblade 3/Shadow Sun Ninja 5/Bloodclaw Master 3/Crusader 1/Eternal Blade 1/Master of Nine 5

Progression:   IL SS/Wbld/Crus
1   SS 1      IL 1         1- Two-Weapon Fighting, B-Imp. Unarmed Strike, B-Weapon Focus (w/e)
2   Wbld 1   IL 1/1
3   Wbld 2   IL 2/2      3- Adaptive Style
4   Wbld 3   IL 2/3
5   SS 2      IL 3/4
6   SSN 1   IL 4/5      6- Imp. Init
7   SSN 2   IL 5/6
8   SSN 3   IL 6/7
9   SSN 4   IL 7/8      9- Blind-Fight
10   BlcM 1   IL 8/9
11   BlcM 2   IL 9/10
12   Crus 1   IL 10/10/9      12- Dodge
13   SSN 5   IL 11/11/10
14   BlcM 3   IL 12/12/11
15   EtBld 1   IL 13/13/12   15- Extra Granted Maneuver
16   Mo9 1   IL 14/14/13
17   Mo9 2   IL 15/15/14
18   Mo9 3   IL 16/16/15   18- *Free
19   Mo9 4   IL 17/17/16
20   Mo9 5   IL 18/18/17

Pre-reqs:
SSN: alignment good, BaB +3, Hide 8, Imp Unarmed Strike, 2nd level SS or SH man, one SS, one SH
BlcM: Jump 9, TWF, three TC mans
EtBld: Elf, BaB +10, Wpn Focus, two DS or DM mans
Mo9: four skills 10, IUaS, Dodge, Imp. Init, Adaptive Style, Blindfight, mans from 6 schools


ILs:
Swordsage 18th
   7 known, 4 readied, 2 stances
   Maneuvers: 6@1st, 1@2nd
   Stances: 1@1st, 1@2nd
Warblade 18th
   5 known, 3 readied, 1 stance
   Maneuvers: 4@1st, 1@2nd
   Stances: 1@1st
Crusader 17th
   5 known, 5 readied, 3 granted, 1 stance
   Maneuvers: 5@5th
   Stances: 1@1st
Shadow Sun Ninja
   +2 known, +1 readied, +1 stance
   2 known can go to Swordsage (1@2nd, 1@3rd) or Warblade (1@3rd, 1@4th)
   1 readied goes to Crusader
   1 stance @6th
Bloodclaw Master
   +2 known, +1 readied
   2 known can go to Swordsage (1@4th, 1@6th) or Warblade (1@5th, 1@6th)
   1 readied goes to Crusader
Eternal Blade
   +1 known
   1 known can go to Swordsage (1@7th) or Warblade (1@7th)
Master of Nine
   +8 known, +5 readied, +2 stances
   5 known can go to Swordsage (2@7th, 3@8th) or Warblade (2@7th, 3@8th)
   5 known goes to Crusader (3@8th, 2@9th)
   5 readied goes to Crusader
   2 stances: 1@8th, 1@9th

Goal: 12 maneuvers readied for Crusader, 10 maneuvers granted, but only 10 maneuvers known!
   You cannot ready all of your maneuvers, so you get into areas that the rules don't cover. Most likely, you just get into the situation where you have 10 granted maneuvers and nothing left to grant, so your maneuvers refresh themselves every single round.
   This situation is induced by adding extra maneuvers known from PrCs to one martial adept progression, and adding the maneuvers readied to another progression. The rules on page 96 state that you can choose which class you add new maneuvers and extra readied to, but each entry is listed independently of the other and has nothing stating that it has to be the same class. So the new maneuvers known are (mostly) added to the Warblade and Swordsage progressions, while all 7 extra maneuvers readied (and consequently granted) are added to Crusader.
   The end result should be that you have 2 9th level maneuvers, 3 8th level maneuvers, and 5 5th level maneuvers available to you each round, plus whatever you pick up for the Warblade and Swordsage sides.

Build Notes: The use of a late level of Crusader and early levels of Shadow Sun Ninja was inspired by the various Reshar/all 9th level maneuver builds. The sole Eternal Blade level in there for the 1/day Eternal Training. My initial reading of the ability made me think it might increase your maneuvers granted when you use it, and not just for the immediate granting. Now I'm not so sure. It can safely be replaced by another level of anything, really, which also frees up the race. Similarly, the exact order of the Blooclaw Master and Shadowsun Ninja levels can be modified. They are just there for improved initiator level for Crusader, and for the extra readied maneuvers that they grant at 3rd/5th, just after taking the Crusader level.

The rules for this are shaky, I'll admit, but what is actually there seems to support this idea. Please point out any flaws or rules I may have missed. This build is not perfectly optimized, it's only a rough skeleton to prove the concept.


Edit: Fixed an error in the level stub. It had SSN 8 instead of SSN 5/BlcM 3
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 05:08:47 PM by Garryl » Logged

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Saxony
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 08:34:09 PM »

The Idiot Crusader, a Crusader with more maneuvers known than readied who refreshes them every round.
You meant more maneuvers readied than known right here.

You cannot ready all of your maneuvers, so you get into areas that the rules don't cover. Most likely, you just get into the situation where you have 10 granted maneuvers and nothing left to grant, so your maneuvers refresh themselves every single round.
I am confused by this. It is more that the number of granted manuevers granted is greater than or equal to the number of maneuvers readied. Because the number of withheld maneuvers is always zero, all maneuvers are recovered at the end of one's every turn and then 10 maneuvers are granted randomly from the 10 maneuvers readied (One gets all of them).

Very, very nice work. It looks good to me!

Now, how to abuse this....  Evil Laugh
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Garryl
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 08:48:55 PM »

The Idiot Crusader, a Crusader with more maneuvers known than readied who refreshes them every round.
You meant more maneuvers readied than known right here.
Fixed.

Quote
You cannot ready all of your maneuvers, so you get into areas that the rules don't cover. Most likely, you just get into the situation where you have 10 granted maneuvers and nothing left to grant, so your maneuvers refresh themselves every single round.
I am confused by this. It is more that the number of granted manuevers granted is greater than or equal to the number of maneuvers readied. Because the number of withheld maneuvers is always zero, all maneuvers are recovered at the end of one's every turn and then 10 maneuvers are granted randomly from the 10 maneuvers readied (One gets all of them).

Very, very nice work. It looks good to me!

Now, how to abuse this....   Evil Laugh

Normally, you have to ready as many maneuvers as you maximum amount of readied maneuvers. In this build, you simply can't do that on the Crusader side. This lets you ready sufficiently few maneuvers that you never have any maneuvers left to grant at the beginning of your turn, so they refresh every turn. Since the rules assume that you always have enough maneuvers to ready your maximum amount, they don't cover this unusual situation. The simplest method of resolving the situation (which also follows what rules there are that are applicable) means that you ready all the maneuvers that you can (10 in this case), and that you still get 10 granted maneuvers. I'm sorry that it wasn't very clear. I was rushing to finish this up and post it.

...as for how to abuse it, you've got 9th and 8th level maneuvers from every school, plus another from Diamond Mind or Devoted Spirit once per day. Pick a strike and a boost and go to town. Time Stands Still and Strike of Righteous Vitality are decent options for 9th level maneuvers. You could just get a mini-me copy with Leadership (you have a free feat for it, why not?) and spam White Raven Tactics on each other for NI turns (or only 20 turns apiece each if your DM enforces the concept of automatically ending the round at -15 initiative, in which case you use the Diamond Mind boost that gives you +20 initiative mid-combat).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 08:58:39 PM by Garryl » Logged

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Links to things I've worked on
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Saxony
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 08:57:17 PM »

Quote
You cannot ready all of your maneuvers, so you get into areas that the rules don't cover. Most likely, you just get into the situation where you have 10 granted maneuvers and nothing left to grant, so your maneuvers refresh themselves every single round.
I am confused by this. It is more that the number of granted manuevers granted is greater than or equal to the number of maneuvers readied. Because the number of withheld maneuvers is always zero, all maneuvers are recovered at the end of one's every turn and then 10 maneuvers are granted randomly from the 10 maneuvers readied (One gets all of them).

Very, very nice work. It looks good to me!

Now, how to abuse this....  Evil Laugh

Normally, you have to ready as many maneuvers as you maximum amount of readied maneuvers. In this build, you simply can't do that on the Crusader side. This lets you ready sufficiently few maneuvers that you never have any maneuvers left to grant at the beginning of your turn, so they refresh every turn. Since the rules assume that you always have enough maneuvers to ready your maximum amount, they don't cover this unusual situation. The simplest method of resolving the situation (which also follows what rules there are that are applicable) means that you ready all the maneuvers that you can (10 in this case), and that you still get 10 granted maneuvers. I'm sorry that it wasn't very clear. I was rushing to finish this up and post it.

Hey, no problem Smile. I would be too.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 09:20:13 PM »

Thought you had to apply a full level from a PrC to a base class.
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 10:12:56 PM »

Thought you had to apply a full level from a PrC to a base class.
You don't usually get maneuvers readied and maneuvers known on the same levels, though. That's why this works, I think.
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Garryl
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 10:40:32 PM »

Thought you had to apply a full level from a PrC to a base class.
You don't usually get maneuvers readied and maneuvers known on the same levels, though. That's why this works, I think.

If you decide that you need to apply the maneuvers known and readied to the same class for a given PrC level, you can still make this concept work. SSN 5, JPM 6, Eternal Blade 6, and maybe RKV each grant a man readied but not a man known. That's just enough to account for your 5 starting Crusader maneuvers that you get at 1st, since you only have room for two of them by 20th. This way would undoubtedly work, but it doesn't have quite the kick of the full 10 maneuvers. It's still plenty to spam WRT or other midlevel maneuvers with.

Wizard 1/SS 2/Wbld 2/SSN 4/JPM 5/Full initiating PrC 3/Crusader 1/SSN +1/JPM +1
That gives IL 15 for 5 maneuvers known. Early entry to JPM via Precocious Apprentice. Also, only gets maneuvers from Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven for the 5. Still gets access to some utility maneuvers from the other classes. Decent utility options from Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Desert Wind, and Devoted Spirit up to 6th level. Caster level 5th or 6th too. I expect most of the SS, Wbld, and JPM maneuver known would be used to fulfill the later prerequisites of the higher level Crusader maneuvers.
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Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 11:12:15 PM »

Ah, that makes more sense, was only running Mo9 through my head. I just need to read better.
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 03:08:40 AM »

...as for how to abuse it, you've got 9th and 8th level maneuvers from every school, plus another from Diamond Mind or Devoted Spirit once per day. Pick a strike and a boost and go to town. Time Stands Still and Strike of Righteous Vitality are decent options for 9th level maneuvers. You could just get a mini-me copy with Leadership (you have a free feat for it, why not?) and spam White Raven Tactics on each other for NI turns (or only 20 turns apiece each if your DM enforces the concept of automatically ending the round at -15 initiative, in which case you use the Diamond Mind boost that gives you +20 initiative mid-combat).

I just had a Good Idea.

Use Cloak of Deception for permanent Greater Invisibility only active on your turn.

Also: White Raven Hammer someone round after round for permanent stunning.
Also: Iron Heart Endurance is basically Fast Healing 40 at IL 20 while below half HP.
Also: Inferno Blade is +30 damage to each attack, not bad. Against foes without fire resistance, that's well, +30 damage to each attack.
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2010, 04:51:43 AM »

Can you white raven tactics yourself? if not two of these could do each other...
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2010, 06:43:29 AM »

Can you white raven tactics yourself? if not two of these could do each other...
Technically you "are an ally of yourself", but its crazy broken and not RaI at all. We're talking a fifth level ability which would grant another turn. Even in the world of maneuvers, this isn't replicated until 17th level and in a very limited form (Time Stands Still). So no.
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2010, 11:35:40 AM »

Can you white raven tactics yourself? if not two of these could do each other...
Technically you "are an ally of yourself", but its crazy broken and not RaI at all. We're talking a fifth level ability which would grant another turn. Even in the world of maneuvers, this isn't replicated until 17th level and in a very limited form (Time Stands Still). So no.
Agreed, but ... is it really any worse for the Crusader to grant herself an extra turn than it is for her to pass one out to say ... the God-style Conjurer, the Druid, or the uber-charger that's also in the party? 

For that reason, and b/c I tend to play games w/ small parties, we've let WRT apply to yourself, even though I do agree it's not RAI at all.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2010, 04:29:15 PM »

Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5

Get fewer mid level maneuvers on the Crusader side (5 maneuvers at 2nd instead of 6th), but picks up Divine Impetus from RKV, letting him use boosts like a 20th level Swordsage wishes he could. Also gains 9th level Cleric casting. Also gets BaB +16, compared to the original's BaB +14.

1   SS 1      IL 1         1- *Free, B-Imp. Unarmed Strike, B-Weapon Focus (w/e)
2   Wbld 1   IL 1/1
3   Cler 1   IL 2/2      3- Adaptive Style
4   SS 2   IL 3/2
5   Crus 1      IL 3/3/3
6   RKV 1   IL 4/4/4      6- Imp. Init
7   RKV 2   IL 5/5/5
8   RKV 3   IL 6/6/6
9   RKV 4   IL 7/7/7      9- Blind-Fight
10   RKV 5   IL 8/8/8
11   RKV 6   IL 9/9/9
12   RKV 7   IL 10/10/10      12- Dodge
13   RKV 8   IL 11/11/11
14   RKV 9   IL 12/12/12
15   RKV 10   IL 13/13/13   15- Extra Granted Maneuver
16   Mo9 1   IL 14/14/14
17   Mo9 2   IL 15/15/15
18   Mo9 3   IL 16/16/16   18- *Free
19   Mo9 4   IL 17/17/17
20   Mo9 5   IL 18/18/18



Wizard 1/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 9/Master of Nine 5

Get fewer mid level maneuvers on the Crusader side (5 maneuvers at 2nd instead of 6th), but gets 11 granted maneuvers instead of 10. Also gains 8th level Wizard casting. Early entry into JPM via Precocious Apprentice. Can get rid of all but one of the Swordsage and/or Warblade levels for up to 11th level casting if you want, but it will be harder to meet the prerequisites for the higher level maneuvers. You can also trade Scribe Scroll for a Fighter feat, freeing up one of the feats used for Mo9 entry. Also gets BaB +16, compared to the original's BaB +14.

1   Wiz 1      IL -         1- Precocious Apprentice, B- Scribe Scroll
2   Wbld 1   IL -/1
3   SS 1   IL 2/2      3- Adaptive Style, B-Imp. Unarmed Strike, B-Weapon Focus (w/e)
4   SS 2   IL 3/2
5   Crus 1      IL 3/3/3
6   Wbld 2   IL 4/4/3      6- Imp. Init
7   JPM 1   IL 5/5/4
8   JPM 2   IL 6/6/5
9   JPM 3   IL 7/7/6      9- Blind-Fight
10   JPM 4   IL 8/8/7
11   JPM 5   IL 9/9/8
12   JPM 6   IL 10/10/9      12- Dodge
13   JPM 7   IL 11/11/10
14   JPM 8   IL 12/12/11
15   JPM 9   IL 13/13/12   15- Extra Granted Maneuver
16   Mo9 1   IL 14/14/13
17   Mo9 2   IL 15/15/14
18   Mo9 3   IL 16/16/15   18- *Free
19   Mo9 4   IL 17/17/16
20   Mo9 5   IL 18/18/17
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 04:31:50 PM by Garryl » Logged

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General listing of my homebrew.
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Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2010, 01:01:56 AM »

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  Smirk
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2010, 01:13:29 AM »

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  Smirk

Actually, the Crusader's recovery mechanic is viewed as superior for the reason that it doesn't use any actions, while the rest of the initiator classes do.
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 05:33:45 PM »

I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 05:03:00 AM »

I get the concept, really rad so many kudos for that.  Slightly confused though, where are the extra granted maneuvers coming from?  Or does the Mot9 grant those and I'm just not reading closely enough?
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 06:55:05 AM »

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  Smirk

Actually, the Crusader's recovery mechanic is viewed as superior for the reason that it doesn't use any actions, while the rest of the initiator classes do.

Recovery is the best, I agree, but the random granting of maneuvers, less so. Unless of course, you are granted just as many maneuvers as you know...Big Grin
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 07:24:05 AM »

I get the concept, really rad so many kudos for that.  Slightly confused though, where are the extra granted maneuvers coming from?  Or does the Mot9 grant those and I'm just not reading closely enough?

That's what I was wondering, too. Please explain.

Ok, I've found it:
Quote from: ToB
If you choose to add the maneuver readied to
a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class
levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the
beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver
you can ready.

That means that you really can get a ton of granted maneuvers.

Now what would be the SIMPLEST build you could make to use this mechanism? No multiple 9th level maneuvers, just a fully refreshing Crusader?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 07:33:12 AM by Brainpiercing » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 08:56:44 AM »

I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.

Do you have a source for this ruling? I don't remember reading that in Tome of Battle, but something like this has never come up before.

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  Smirk

Actually, the Crusader's recovery mechanic is viewed as superior for the reason that it doesn't use any actions, while the rest of the initiator classes do.
It's also random and doesn't happen all at once. I consider it either tied or inferior to the Warblade mechanic. Having never played a Crusader all the way to 20 (or even 10), I can't really comment.
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