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Author Topic: Modified Two-Weapon Fighting  (Read 1496 times)
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RobbyPants
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« on: May 28, 2010, 07:53:31 AM »

I was thinking about two-weapon fighting, and how it's really only worth while for someone with a serious boost to per-attack damage.  Another thing I hate about it is that it's both very feat intensive and it really doesn't keep up with the standard damage of someone just using a greatsword.  So, it ends up being useless to characters that aren't rogues, or occasionally rangers, and it's almost too good for rogues*.  I wanted to change that.

* This is subjective, but I wanted to tone down the overall power, but make it more consistent.  I understand I'll have to take things like charging into account as well, later on.


Fighting with Two Weapons

Anyone can fight with a weapon in each hand, although this is difficult for someone to do without special training.  A character with a weapon in each hand may opt to make a special flurry attack as a full-round action.  The flurry works as follows:
  • You may make a number of attacks with each weapon as allowed by your base attack bonus.  For example: if you have a BAB of +6, you may make a total of four attacks between the two weapons; a +6 and +1 attack with your primary weapon and a +6 and +1 attack with your secondary weapon.
  • You only add half your Strength modifier to damage on your off-hand weapon.
  • You do not apply precision damage (such as Sneak Attack) to these attacks, although they can score critical hits as normal.  These attacks are made too quickly to be that precise.
  • You take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls during the flurry until the beginning of your next turn if your off-hand weapon is light.  If it is not light, you take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls instead.


Two-Weapon Fighting [GENERAL]
You are more skilled at fighting with two weapons.
Prerequisite: Dex 15+
Benefit: This feat gives you three options, one of which you chose at the start of your turn:
Two-weapon defense: If you forgo all off-hand attacks this round, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC if your off-hand weapon is light, or a +2 bonus if it is not light.
Flurry: You may make a flurry attack as described in Fighting with Two Weapons, except the penalties to your attack rolls are reduced by 2.  So fighting with a light weapon in your off-hand has no penalties, and fighting with a weapon in your off-hand that is not light only adds a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Feint: If you forgo all off-hand attacks this round, you may use a special feint option as a swift action.  This may be used against a single foe that you threaten in melee with your off-hand weapon.  You roll a Bluff check and add your base attack bonus.  This is opposed by your opponent's Spot check with his base attack bonus added.  If your check succeeds, your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC against all of your primary-hand weapons this round.


Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting [GENERAL]
You have learned to fight with a one-handed weapon in each hand.
Prerequisite: Dex 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you do not take an additional penalty if your off-hand weapon is not light when making a flurry attack.  You also add your full Strength modifier to damage with your off-hand weapon if it is not light.



So, what are your thoughts?  Obviously, other things like charging will need to be taken into account with this, but I think it makes the tactic more attractive to fighters and barbarians, and it makes it far less feat intensive.  The feint option allows rogues to Sneak Attack more often, but not allowing precision damage on a flurry roughly halves their SA damage otherwise.  Personally, I favor this constancy over binary awesome/suck based on the conditions.  It also makes a solo rogue more viable, and makes swashbuckler fencer-types more viable.

Did I miss anything crazy?  Any unexpected nerfs or buffs?  I haven't put much thought into Multi-Weapon Fighting yet.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 10:19:29 AM »

Weapon chants play any part in Two-weapon defense?

I don't know how I like a flawed character being able to take all TWF feats at level 1, heck even a first level human fighter could do it. Some BAB requirement might fit to spread them out some.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 10:37:53 AM »

How much of a problem is that, though?  If you take a straight-forward fighter or barbarian, they're really not gaining much, and they're spending a feat to do it.

For example: the level 1 fighter takes TWF and uses a longsword and a short sword.  This lets him deal 1d8 + 1d6 + 1.5 Str mod for damage.  Without that feat, he could simply use a greatsword to deal 2d6 + 1.5 Str mod, so he's gaining one point of damage on average for a feat.  This feat also lets him simply deal 1d8 + Str mod and gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.  The feinting approach could be nice, especially against fast opponents, but it's not a big part of a typical fighter's strategy.

Even if he takes a second feat for Oversized TWF, he's still not going to crazy town with damage.  Granted, it jumps to 2d8 + 2x Str mod, but, even with a Str of 18, we're looking at a 4 point increase on average from greatsword guy for the cost of two feats.

I personally don't find this unbalancing, and I like the idea of the character being able to realize his schtick right from first level, assuming it's not overpowered.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 10:58:29 AM »

I'll start with the complaints:

1.it doesn't fix the damage issue in my mind. You will still deal pitiful amounts of damage but have more feats to boost it a little.

2. Damage reduction still destroys you. This has always been the biggest problem i've had with TWF because the DR applies twice as much and it is significantly harder to blow through it than it is for a THF.

3. Your still burning money. You still have to burn through twice as much money to keep up your weapons to an appropriate level. This takes away from your funds for other useful items.

4. You still are a glass cannon. Due to spending all of your money and feats making TWF viable you now have no shield, likely light armor, and no money to upgrade them. Congrats you have just donated some shiny new knives to the ogre's kids.

now for some Compliments and suggestions:
I love the simplification of the feat tree. Spending 3+ feats just to be proficient at swinging a few extra times was stupid. I also like taking the tactical approach to the feats as well.

1. Give TWF feat the TW Pounce ability (PHB2). Basically it is a standard action to attack with both weapons.

2. Make a counter part for Oversized TWF for light weapons that would allow for Dex to damage instead of half str. That way it balances out some and gives both a feat worth investing in to increase damage. Also require higher Dex for this feat and add a minimum str to Oversized.

3. Allow the defense ability to scale up with BaB likely + the number of attacks given up. This would be in addition to the bonus granted by the weapon (+1 or 2 depending on size).

4. Add TW Defense as a higher level feat the ability to basically grant any weapon you wield in your off hand the Defending property as well as some other defensive options.

5. Add TW Assault as a higher level feat to add some offensive options that would be based on the character level/abilities. I'm thinking something like Two as One Swing both weapons together in order to deal more damage on a singe swing (deal base damage for both weapons but add the appropriate ability modifier once and treat as 1 hit for weapon enhancements only add from 1 weapon [prevent damage stacking too high]) This would allow for penetrating DR but likely won't be as good as swinging with both weapons on an opponent who doesn't have DR causing a problem. Obviously some more options for this feat as well.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 11:07:37 AM »

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 11:11:10 AM »

You make a good point about DR and money.  I'm not sure how to handle those really.  The shield thing could partially be solved by allowing your off-hand weapon's enhancement bonus to hit count toward your shield bonus to AC when using Two-Weapon Defense.  So, if you're holding a +2 Longsword in your primary-hand and a +2 short sword in your off-hand, you'd gain a +3 shield bonus to AC (+1 for a light weapon, +2 for the enhancement bonus).  Personally, I don't see it as overpowered because you're paying double for that bonus anyway (in that weapon enhancements cost twice that of armor enhancements).  It's sort of like a free Defending property.  Sort of.

TW Pounce is a nice suggestion.  I might just add that in to the basic TWF combat section, and not the feat itself.  So you can either flurry (full round) or attack once with each as a standard action.  Good call.  Perhaps you can add precision damage on the standard attack.  That makes sense to me and it isn't too crazy.

BAB scaling could work too, but might not be so necessary if you use the enhancement bonus I suggested above.

Thanks for the suggestions.
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Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 11:12:32 AM »

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.
I don't have Complete Adventurer handy.  Does the original feat have a BAB prereq?  I can see it having a +1 BAB prereq (but no higher), although I can't for the life of me picture a less-than-full BAB class taking Oversized TWF in the first place.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Sohala
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 11:18:22 AM »

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.
I don't have Complete Adventurer handy.  Does the original feat have a BAB prereq?  I can see it having a +1 BAB prereq (but no higher), although I can't for the life of me picture a less-than-full BAB class taking Oversized TWF in the first place.
Nah, it does not (had to look), but I was more meaning TWF feats in general.
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archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 11:26:18 AM »

crazy thought for dealing with the DR and money issues. Probably too powerful but i'll lay it out there for consideration.

light version:
treat both weapons as having the same properties for the purposes of DR. One is +1 Holy adamantine while the other is +1 axiomatic cold iron. Both are treated as Magic, Adamantine, Cold Iron, Good, & Lawful for checking damage reduction. This would give them a good chance to ignore most damage reduction but is limited enough that a smart DM can still get some creatures in there that it wouldn't apply to. DR/Epic still screws them though.

Power version:
The actually gain the properties of the other weapon. So in the above example they are both +1 Holy Axiomatic Adamantine Cold Iron weapons. with the bonus damage from Holy and Axiomatic on both. This would cut down on the additional costs of maintaining 2 weapons but can get brutal if you stack enough bonuses.

If you use the enhancement bonus you talked about for the defense it should help to limit the power of version 2 i presented as people wouldn't be as motivate to get a +1 with +9 of xyz weapon just to add the bonuses to their primary hand.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
RobbyPants
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 11:26:55 AM »

Nah, it does not (had to look), but I was more meaning TWF feats in general.
Which ones?  Like TWF Defense?

Because really, this just wraps TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF and TW Defense into one feat and adds the feint option.  And you can't use them all together.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Sohala
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 11:38:20 AM »

Improved and Greater both do carry BAB requirement.
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archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 11:46:29 AM »

those requirements are useless as far as how he worded it. The original feats basically gave you an extra attack at a penalty while his version just states you get your normal number of attacks with both hands.

The requirements were exactly the minimum BaB that would be needed to use the feat and not gain more attacks than you should have at that level. +6 & +11 Those limitations are already built in under this.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 12:05:23 PM »

Yes this is true, but he did ask which TWF feats I was looking at that had BAB requirements, not saying that the feats need one, but my first thought was there should be.
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archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 12:26:26 PM »

this should cover it:
From crystal keep.
Two-Weapon Feats
 
Two-Weapon Feats          Source     Prerequisite  Description
Double Hit
[General, Fighter]
(Mini p25)
Dexterity 17
Base Attack Bonus +6
Combat Reflexes
Two-Weapon Fighting
Before you make an Attack of Opportunity, you may choose to attack with both weapons, taking the
standard penalties for fighting with two weapons.

Dual Strike 
[General, Fighter]
(CAdv p108)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon
Fighting
As a Standard Action, you can make a melee attack with your primary and off-hand weapon. Both attacks
use the same attack roll and the worse of the two weapon’s attack modifier. If you are using a one-handed
or light weapon in your off-hand, you take a –4 penalty; otherwise the penalty is –10.
Each weapon deals its damage normally and reduction/resistance is applied separately. Precision damage
(such as sneak attack) is only applied once. A critical hit only deals critical damage from the primary.

Greater Two-Weapon
Defense
[General, Fighter]
(CWar p100)
Dexterity 19
Base Attack Bonus +11
Improved Two-Weapon
Defense
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding two weapons (but not when using Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons), you gain a +3
Shield bonus to AC.   
If Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, you gain a +6 Shield bonus to AC.

Greater Two-Weapon
Fighting
[General, Fighter]
(PH p95)
Dexterity 19
Base Attack Bonus +11
Improved Two-Weapon
Fighting
Ranger 11 th   
As part of a Full Round Attack, you may make an attack with your secondary weapon at –2,  a second
attack at –7, and a third attack at –12.

Haft Strike
[General]
(DR331 p28)
Two-Weapon Fighting
 
When making a Full Attack Action with a Polearm that is not a Double weapon, you may make an off-hand
attack with the haft of the Polearm that does damage as if it were a Club.  All normal Two-Weapon
Fighting rules apply.   
If the Polearm is magical, its haft counts as magic for purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Normally, the haft of a non-double weapon counts as an Improvised weapon and cannot be used as part of a
Full Attack Action.

Improved Two-
Weapon Defense
[General, Fighter]
(CWar p101)
Dexterity 17
Base Attack Bonus +6
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding two weapons (but not when using Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons), you gain a +2
Shield bonus to AC.   
If Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, you gain a +4 Shield bonus to AC.

Improved Two-
Weapon Fighting
[General, Fighter]   (PH p96)
Dexterity 17
Base Attack Bonus +6
Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 6 th   
As part of a Full Round Attack, you may make an attack with your secondary weapon at –2,  a second
attack at –7.

Oversized Two-
Weapon Fighting 
[General, Fighter]  (CAdv p111)
Strength 13
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding a One-Handed weapon in your off hand, you only take penalties as if it were a Light
weapon.

Pin Shield
[General]
(CWar p103)
Base Attack Bonus +4
Two-Weapon Fighting
 
As part of a Full Round Attack, you may skip your off-hand attacks (but still take the –2 penalty) in order to
grab your opponent’s shield during the attack.  This deprives your opponent of his/her Shield Bonus to
AC.  You may only use this ability when fighting an opponent within one size category larger or smaller
than you who is using a shield and you are fighting with two weapons.

Spear Master
[General, Fighter]  (DR30 p89)
—  You may choose to wield a Spear or Shortspear as a Double Weapon.  The blunt end does Bludgeoning
damage in the same amount as the Piercing end.  Each end must be Enchanted separately.

Two-Weapon Attack
of Opportunity 
[General, Fighter]  (DR340 p87)
Dexterity 17
Combat Reflexes
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you make an Attack of Opportunity, you are allowed an attack with each of your weapons, with the
normal penalties for doing so.  This counts as two of your Attacks of Opportunity per round and your
maximum is not increased.

Two-Weapon
Defense
[General, Fighter]  (PH p102)
Dexterity 15
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding two weapons or a double weapon (but not when using Unarmed Strikes or Natural
Weapons), you gain a +1 Shield bonus to AC.   
If Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, you gain a +2 Shield bonus to AC.

Two-Weapon
Fighting
[General, Fighter]
(PH p102)
Dexterity 15  Ranger 2 nd   
Your penalty for fighting with two weapons simultaneously (or with a double weapon) is reduced by –2 on
your primary hand & –6 on your secondary hand.  This works out to –2 on both hands when wielding a
Light or One-Handed weapon in your primary hand and a Light weapon in your secondary hand.
As part of a Full Round Attack, you may make a single attack with your secondary weapon.

Two-Weapon Pounce
[General, Fighter]
(PH2 p84)
Dexterity 15
Base Attack Bonus +6
Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 6 th   
At the end of a Charge, you may attack with both your primary & off-hand weapons.  The +2 attack bonus
for the Charge and the –2 penalty for fighting with two weapons cancel out.  You still receive the –2
penalty to AC for the Charge.

Two-Weapon Rend
[General, Fighter]
(PH2 p84)
Dexterity 15
Base Attack Bonus +11
Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 11 th   
If you damage an opponent with each of your weapons in a given round, you do extra damage equal to 
1d6 + 1 ½ Strength modifier.  With regards to Damage Reduction, use the off-hand weapon’s
characteristics.
A given creature may only take this rending damage once per round.
Logged

Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
RobbyPants
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Posts: 7139



« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 12:49:46 PM »

Yes this is true, but he did ask which TWF feats I was looking at that had BAB requirements, not saying that the feats need one, but my first thought was there should be.
Well, it doesn't matter, because you won't get a second off-hand attack until your BAB is +6, and you won't get a 3rd until your BAB is +11.  It's basically built right into the flurry mechanic.


Dang archangel, I've got some reading to do.  Just skimming the first few, a lot of those feats seem underpowered to begin with, and these changes would weaken them more.  Still, they could be useful for idea-mining.
Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
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archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2010, 01:05:42 PM »

I would like to see each combat style be a distinct choice that ends up being equal rather than THF dominating the game. So between this and BHU's grapple revision i'm pretty interested and will hopefully be happy with the results. I'm just trying to provide the support and suggestions to help develop them the way they should have been.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
RobbyPants
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 01:21:56 PM »

Sure.  Although, personally, I wouldn't mind reducing some of the rocket-tagishness of THF and toning down the overall power of casters instead.  Not that I think that THF holds a candle to casters, but it contributes to the whole initiative contest aspect of combat.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2010, 03:48:34 PM »

I think only certain high end builds are really all that rocket tagish, uber chargers and the like. I actually like the power level that a decently built THF sits at, i think some monsters are just too squishy.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
RobbyPants
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 10:00:25 PM »

I'm actually wondering if I want to keep Oversized TWF as a separate feat or not.

These changes are a mixed blessing for a rogue.  They reduce their potential damage, but make Sneak Attack damage more consistent in general.  For fighter/barbarian types, they're an improvement compared to the normal TWF rules, but they're roughly on par with THF.  TWF still suffers the problems archangel mentioned of DR and weapon costs.

If I wrap Oversized TWF in with TWF in general, you end up with the ability to do somewhat more damage than THF, but nothing really crazy.  Really, at 1st level, you're looking at something like 2d8 + 2x Str compared to 2d6 + 1.5x Str.  A dwarf treats waraxes as martial weapons and could increase this to 2d10, but that's still not crazy town or anything.  It's potent at low levels, but it tapers off quickly.  When you're looking at 10th level characters, so much of their damage is going to come from Power Attack that I don't think these changes will make a huge difference.

I know wrapping the two feats together is adding a lot to one feat, but when I look at everything you get by using a two-handed weapon, I'm having trouble finding another way.  Any thoughts?
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
archangel.arcanis
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Posts: 2938



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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 10:43:56 AM »

i think folding it in would make the original TWF feat too powerful. How about adding a bit more to the oversized feat and the potential dex based counter part? What do you think about this revision & addition?

Oversized TWF: Req. str 15 & dex 15, TWF, BaB +3
When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you do not take an additional penalty if your off-hand weapon is not light when making a flurry attack.  You also add your full Strength modifier to damage with your off-hand weapon if it is not light. In addition you may use power attack with either or both of your weapons, if you could normally use power attack with that weapon. (this is to prevent people from using this feat to power attack with odd weapons that shouldn't have that ability)

Nimble TWF: Req: Dex 19, TWF, BaB +2
When fighting with a weapon in each hand and both are light weapons you may add your full dexterity modifier to your damage in place of your strength modifier for both weapons. You may also apply precision damage to both weapons, if your attack would otherwise meet the requirements for dealing the precision damage. If the precision damage is represented by additional dice then you only get to apply half the number of dice, rounded down, per strike.

I think allowing SA with the dex based version should be fine but the limitation on number of dice should keep it from being all that crazy. It is all but guaranteed that if they are going for that one that they will have weapon finesse to be a 1 stat character, but that is all dex based melee characters. Also i put in the BaB requirements to delay the entry for them. The oversized will almost always be used by a full bab class while nimble will be delayed until after they have at least 2 SA dice. I am a bit concerned that Nimble will over shadow the Oversized one though since it only needs 1 stat and gains extra damage without taking a penalty to attack. Maybe allow them to use up to full SA dice but take a -1 to attack per die added? It won't fix stacking other precision damage on there but by the time you can get much of that most things are immune to it anyway.
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Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren
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