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Endarire
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« on: May 28, 2010, 01:48:57 AM » |
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In optimized D&D, I believe that, even at low levels, there is little need for the iconic four roles of D&D. To summarize:
Beefy McFighter: Uses a big weapon and hurts things. Also has lots of HP and usually high AC. Snake 'im up, point 'im at the foe, an' watch guts fly!
Sneaky McPickLock: A Rogue is expected to be a lockpick that sometimes also scouts, bluffs, and sneak attacks. If your group has no Rogue or a reasonable facsimile, the DM may not include traps and locks.
Healy McBandAid: Heals HP damage in or out of combat. Sometimes buffs and removes status ailments. Reminds me of EarthBound's Dr. Saturn: "You need fixer-upper? ZOOM!"
Magic McMissile: Wizards are the expected blasters of the game that dabble in buffs, debuffs, and crowd control spells. In an optimized game, a blaster would be one-shotting or one-rounding any credible threat assuming he had the spells.
In an expected game, these characters are Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin, Rogue, Cleric/Druid, and Wizard/Sorcerer.
In an optimized game, while sticking to the theme, these are more likely Warblade/Barbarian/Crusader, Rogue/Swordsage/Factotum/Cleric, no one, and Wizard. Sure, people can heal, but UMD a Wand of cure light wounds or buy some Healing Belts and you're probably set.
If we assume that casters can truly do anything, why is an optimized group from level 1 not Druid (Beefy), Artificer (Sneaky), Cleric (preventative maintenance Healy) and Wizard (Magic)?
I've often wondered how a group of all Wizards would fare, starting from level 1. They'd get all Clerical Conjuration (Healing) spells as Wizardly Necromancy (Healing) spells and would need to play smart until they had a small army of minions from charm/dominate/summoning/calling//necromancy. Turn 'em loose in a low magic world and see how long it takes for them to take over, or destroy themselves.
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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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Havok4
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 11:35:36 AM » |
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If we assume that casters can truly do anything, why is an optimized group from level 1 not Druid (Beefy), Artificer (Sneaky), Cleric (preventative maintenance Healy) and Wizard (Magic)?
That party you describe is an optimal group. It is just that you would end up playing rocket tag really early on in your groups game. The all wizards idea sounds awesome to me, it would be a lot of fun with each wizard specializing in something different and you could see how big of things even low level wizards could do. |
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Solo
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 11:38:25 AM » |
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If the arcane spellcasters are Sorcerers, they can make use of some UMD and have Divine Companions for healing.
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Hallack
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 12:16:00 PM » |
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All Wizard group?
Beefy McFighter: Wizard (going into swiftblade)
Sneaky McPickLock: Wizard (going Unseen Seer?)
Healy McBandAid: bleh
Magic McMissile: Wizard
Hmm, let's work out a decent all Wizard band or do we just want to do an all Arcane caster band?
For general Sneaky McPickLock I actually prefer the Beguiler over the Rogue. Well, there are several options better than just plain ole rogue.
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Shadowhunter
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 12:37:18 PM » |
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Well Malconvokers can summon 2 Hellish McFiend Supremes to act as McFighter.  Sneaky McPickLock would be either something like Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4 or Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Beguiler would also then double as Face, something McPickLock sometimes are called upon to do. I suppose McBandAid would be something with Marmage/Rainbow Servant/War Weaver-shenanigans. McMissile would be anything left you want to play. |
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the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  (A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours) I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote] Binder? You're WelcomeZceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2. Cagemarrow is a GeniusBefore giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice. |
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Havok4
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 12:38:35 PM » |
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A beguiler would work very well indeed, this kind of set up would work best with the restriction being all arcane full casters but an all wizard group would be fine. For the healing and sneaky a Venerable Dragonwroght Desert Kobold Beguiler with one of the sovereign archetypes that grant the cleric spell list would work well.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 01:19:50 PM » |
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A beguiler would work very well indeed, this kind of set up would work best with the restriction being all arcane full casters but an all wizard group would be fine. For the healing and sneaky a Venerable Dragonwroght Desert Kobold Beguiler with one of the sovereign archetypes that grant the cleric spell list would work well.
I agree with beguiler. I've maintained for a while that my favorite party would be: Druid Cleric (or Archivist) Beguiler Conjurer (possibly focused) |
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 02:45:45 PM » |
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Trapfinding is the most efficient version of trying to do Trapfinding (huh?). Same can be said of Search, Disable Device, Int based high skills class, etc. But later the higher powered classes can do it just as well, and have more stuff. Later later, the party says "Trap?" we already knew about that, and we're going around. Beguiler or Arty are obvious here. It's almost like the CO-board invented it's own class: the T that becomes Face/UMD/Ted etc ... If PHB2 rebuilding is available, a Rogue 1 / Wizard 7+ can or should be able to rebuild that 1 level. "I used to hafta steal my material components, now I just take them ... " Classes with ACFs that can replace Trapfinding might work almost as well. ** 4e's goes the other way ... giving everyone healing, nerfs everything below the good 4th level spells, and all the other yawnsers / byzantine corners. |
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veekie
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 02:53:18 PM » |
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All Wizard group?
Beefy McFighter: Wizard (going into swiftblade)
Sneaky McPickLock: Wizard (going Unseen Seer?)
Healy McBandAid: bleh
Magic McMissile: Wizard
Hmm, let's work out a decent all Wizard band or do we just want to do an all Arcane caster band?
For general Sneaky McPickLock I actually prefer the Beguiler over the Rogue. Well, there are several options better than just plain ole rogue.
Healing are conjurations and I think Master Specialist should let you pick up a couple. Otherwise theres always the Recaster. |
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die." |
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 04:50:19 PM » |
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Fighter: easily replaced by a cleric, druid, druid's animal companion, or a buffed summon spell
Trapmonkey: easily replaced by Summon Monster I or the Summon Elemental reserve feat
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Endarire
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 10:40:58 PM » |
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Healings are normally Conjuration and Master Specialist errataed things so only Wizard spells are available from Expanded Spellbook. Recaster works, though.
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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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veekie
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2010, 12:01:56 AM » |
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Trapmonkey: easily replaced by Summon Monster I or the Summon Elemental reserve feat
In my experience, the reserve feat suffices, but you'd run out of Summon Monster I even if you use a wand. Bloody resetting traps. |
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die." |
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Morpholomew
Monkey bussiness
Posts: 10
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 09:09:15 AM » |
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This thread once again rather makes me want to try a party consisting of Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage and Healer.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 09:43:23 AM » |
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Other than the healer and warmage feeling a little small in the pants, it actually does sound like a lot of fun.
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Aliment
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
Posts: 244
Illithid Zombies
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 10:07:04 PM » |
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Other than the healer and warmage feeling a little small in the pants, it actually does sound like a lot of fun.
Poor Healer, the Warmage could always just go Rainbow servant and take his job. I'd love to play a Beguiler, they're what the Bard should have been. The 4 Categories I'd establish: Meat: I don't die. Cannon: I do lots of Damage Sidekick: I make sure everyone works more efficiently God: I keep things from getting hairy with my POWER. |
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True Sign of Player Paranoia:
Player:"I look out of the keep"
DM:"There are no visible armies"
Player:"Aw crap theres an Invisible army!"
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veekie
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 05:46:58 AM » |
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The rogue really has a role because of how annoying traps can be without trapfinding and spells don't work on all of them, just most of them.
They are the "Specialist Obstacle Remover".
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die." |
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 07:41:41 AM » |
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The rogue really has a role because of how annoying traps can be without trapfinding and spells don't work on all of them, just most of them.
They are the "Specialist Obstacle Remover".
It's also a special role in that it's not always required. DMs will often exclude or reduce traps if there isn't a rogue present. So, in those cases, adding a rogue suddenly creates the necessity for the rogue. [anecdotal story]I played in a one-shot game where the DM didn't want any of us using trapfinding abilities, because he used traps as puzzles. Basically, it wasn't that difficult to realize something was amiss before triggering the trap, and it was up to us to bypass it. It was actually a good amount of fun, but that type of game even further reduces the need for a dedicated trapfinder.[/anecdotal story] |
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Logged
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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veekie
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 10:11:38 AM » |
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Yeah, but I know a DM who loves to rub it in by ramping up how 'creative' the traps are especially if theres no rogue to disarm them. His rationale was that they wouldn't be as fun if you could just turn them off. Traps can be more of special terrain when they reset, are obvious, and totally wreck preconceptions of the battlefield up.
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die." |
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Morpholomew
Monkey bussiness
Posts: 10
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 06:07:31 PM » |
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Other than the healer and warmage feeling a little small in the pants, it actually does sound like a lot of fun.
Of course the idea would be that it stays to the lower levels and otherwise one might use a few houseruled homebrew tweaks to them to up their versatility a bit and make them more useful. I for one have few qualms with doing away with Tier 1 classes and having the Healer get Turn Undead and access to the spells of one domain. Warmage could be upped by adding a few Transmutation spells perhaps. Of course, it all depends on your group's style and the DM's views on things. |
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