OOC discussion

[McPoyo]

...got taken by Candle Jack mid-pos

[Brainpiercing]

...got taken by Candle Jack mid-pos

Edited...

[Omen of Peace]

Oh, I had actually copied the text on his sheet.

Mmh... I disag- Okay, let's go with your interpretation for now (I'm trying to appear in charge here, even though The DM Is Always Right.)

[Brainpiercing]

It's a borderline call. Arguably, I should have said that it moves about a bit so that it really can't know anymore where Mael is. I'll have it draw an AoO from the Marc.

But yeah, actually in order to give everyone a life-or-death experience, these kind of bad guys are necessary .

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

AoO: Hit AC 31, 34 damage.

[Brainpiercing]

Not quite enough, in spite of blinding.... if they had more dex and less natural armour, that would be different...

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

I rolled a 17!!! If an 18 would have hit that's only a 15% chance of hitting!

[Brainpiercing]

Yes, well, I said they had inappropriate AC. The other critters you fought before were the same, really. But these now are wearing armour on top - simply because they can.

Which means you should look into stacked AC debuffs. For example knocking them prone in some way would go a long way - stacked with other stuff. If you changed to gargantuan you could create Hurricane strength winds, enough to knock large creatures prone.

To put this into perspective: These critters are - in their present state - about CR12-13. And Torgthen's AC is just a bit lower.

The other thing to pay attention to: The MARC isn't a dedicated meleer. He's almost completely half-BAB. This leaves the obvious weakness of a vanilla DFA to be considered - all the BFC is fine, but the raw damage is rather lacking.

[Sohala]

To put this into perspective: These critters are - in their present state - about CR12-13. And Torgthen's AC is just a bit lower.

The possible damage output is a little bit different between the two though.

[Brainpiercing]

To put this into perspective: These critters are - in their present state - about CR12-13. And Torgthen's AC is just a bit lower.

The possible damage output is a little bit different between the two though.

With two more levels? CR is a messy thing, I know. By RAW, they are 12, but I think they are a bit more than that, on a classical scale. They did come pre-debuffed, though, so... I think 13 is a pretty good estimate.
None of you guys fit on that scale, anyway. I think any one of you at level 13 would wipe the floor with them, one on one.

[Sohala]

I meant that you were comparing AC to AC, and I was comparing damage to damage.

Anyway, hmm...51k wealth, assuming standard WLB, along with three level ups...Torgthen might be able to go toe to toe, still would take a long time for him to kill it though.

By the way, the Open Chakra line of spells, will those be only opening the slot, or will it be giving a free bind as well?

[Brainpiercing]

I meant that you were comparing AC to AC, and I was comparing damage to damage.

Anyway, hmm...51k wealth, assuming standard WLB, along with three level ups...Torgthen might be able to go toe to toe, still would take a long time for him to kill it though.

By the way, the Open Chakra line of spells, will those be only opening the slot, or will it be giving a free bind as well?

The Open Chakra spells, and to keep things consistent I think I should let the feats be identical, should open the chakra AND provide a bind. I think it's fairly obvious for the spells, but the feats are shoddily worded.
I also tend to think how crappy the feats are from their level requirements, so if anyone has suggestions on moving them down the line a bit...

[Brainpiercing]

I have to apologise to Snizor: My reading-comprehension must be lacking - I missed his move. SORRY! I will also have to move Vrock 3, but everything else should be fine. (I have to undo the damage on Cat, that's all.)

Ok, I've made some edits to that last post I made for the demons.

[Omen of Peace]

Torgthen did make the save, BP. It's on the page before last in the IC thread.

edit: random rule question: does a Vorpal weapon remove all the heads of a multi-headed creature on a crit?

[Brainpiercing]

Torgthen did make the save, BP. It's on the page before last in the IC thread.

edit: random rule question: does a Vorpal weapon remove all the heads of a multi-headed creature on a crit?

I think Vorpal weapons are pretty strange, in that they have the "realistic" effect of a head being severed - and to answer your question, I don't think they sever more than one per attack. So... I usually tend to think that Vorpal weapons aren't worth their money.

[Omen of Peace]

It's a tiny retcon, but Daelric could use Greater Mirror Image in response to the screech. It doesn't help any against the stunning, but it could help him stay alive.

Otherwise, if we have permission to use "fluid initiative" I can give my ace-in-the-hole a try. Coz' I don't see Torgthen stopping a Vrock outright (feel free to prove me wrong!), and while the Marc can bullrush Vrock 3 that would leave Vrocks 1 and 2 free to attack Mael and Isul...

[Brainpiercing]

Well... do your worst, because I don't see any other option right now.

[Sohala]

Torgthen doesn't really have anything decisive; he is more of a steady, endurance character, though his bonus to hit doesn't seem like it is remotely high enough for the theme in this game.

[Brainpiercing]

Torgthen doesn't really have anything decisive; he is more of a steady, endurance character, though his bonus to hit doesn't seem like it is remotely high enough for the theme in this game.

For level appropriate enemies it IS high enough. But these guys are at least +2 or +3, with a heavier boost on AC than on the rest.

There was that discussion recently about level 10 PCs meeting a CR 14 monster with 40 AC - and they were supposed to beat it without too much trouble. But none of you guys are Tier 1, I expected you to have trouble with this fight (it is, if you add it all up, EL 17, after all ) Now I didn't originally spring these guys on you to actually fight you - they only threatened you initially, and there was a choice to be made, there. It's always hard to scare players enough to NOT seek a fight in a certain situation, and maybe I didn't make it all clear enough. But now we all have to live with these choices, and I certainly don't want to kill any of you off.

In the end, this is just the problem with meleers: You need to hit for everything, and AC is easily and cheaply buffed - for monsters. (In fact these demons can hardly hit each other.)
Once you have a bit of downtime, and some cash, you can boost your to hit a little more. For now you just have to live with only being able to hit the enemies reliably after they have been debuffed in several ways. Now look at the bright side: Even with the debuffs, the casters could have trouble against them.

[Omen of Peace]

@Sohala: hey, you made the Fort save and did not get torn to pieces (yet?). Not so bad in my book.
(I dread the day when we encounter Aboleths with DC 28 Enslave.)

@BP: this discussion about future levels got me thinking and looking at the rules for this game.
I noticed this:

Everybody gains 12 bonus HP at lvl 1, and one bonus feat from a limited list of feats that give small numerical bonuses and don't scale. It's best to ask about this.

which I'm pretty sure Mael didn't get. Is it valid for this campaign?