OOC discussion

[Brainpiercing]

Discuss everything out of character here. You can also discuss your characters, as far as you like to make them public.

[Straw_Man]

Hey, an OOC thread. Nice 

Important question: How far across the spectrum are the characters? I'd have a very difficult time playing Caerthe in a mostly evil party.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

My character is neutral, and overall I prefer to have him an a neutral-to-good group (though I suppose he could fit into an evil party well enough).

[Snizor]

I somehow doubt that the majority (IE 3 or more) of the party will be evil, seeing as it would require me, Smudgyhandsman, and Akula (basically everyone except the two of you) to all be evil.

edit: Placed emphasis on the doubt part of my post.

[Straw_Man]

Are we getting more players, or is that the all of us? Cause I can run Caerthe in an evil party, but it'd be ... disruptive. And party play is one of my goals when I play.

[Akula]

Though my character is evil, she should be subtle about it and isn't really wedded to the alignment. (I fully expect the alignment to change during the campaign)

[Brainpiercing]

Well, the plan was to have an evil and a good party, but as it is, several people haven't submitted their concepts on time.

Now I thought setting a deadline was a good idea, but maybe I should extend it? Or I could set up a fresh recruitment drive just after beginning the campaign. I would prefer the second option, simply because I now want to put most of my efforts into writing up the settings, getting some background plot underway for you to read, etc. This is a surprising amount of work, I hadn't quite anticipated it. (Mostly due to the fact that I need to get things at least mostly right.)

The options I see for evil characters is either sort of trailing the good party, running ahead of the good party in hopes of beating them to the punch, or coming to some sort of agreement of temporary cooperation. Option three isn't as unlikely as it may seem, because the way the scenario is, there's evil and EVIL evil! Also, lawful evil alignment is actually quite common throughout the world. In fact, a lot of people who aquire influence or wealth change to lawful evil at some point in their lives. So at least lawful evil shouldn't cause every paladin to Smite Evil instantly - since that likely as not would just be murder.

With the smallness of the party I need to increase the possibility of bringing along hirelings, etc. Even if none of you have taken leadership, you can each have hirelings with limited loyalty, and assume to have the funds for them, too. They will fight for you, but if they can avoid it they won't die for you - unless their contract includes resurrection in case of death. I especially see this as an option for the evil characters.  Hirelings don't need to be statted fully. Just give them a name, the main stats they need for their function (BSF or skillmonkey, max physical stats of 16 before levels) and the main skills they need for their function. (Simply level+3 for the main two or three skills). Use NPC or PC classes, as you wish. Give them a bit of a personality so interaction isn't purely functional. Give them masterwork equipment for their main task. (Armour and weapons or toolkit) Your hirelings can be your level -2 and they will level with you.

I forgot to put this in the publich sheet thread, but you should put your alignments in there, too, unless you have ways of making it undetectable. (A Mask of Lies (MIC) is pretty cheap.)

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

Hmmm...I hadn't really planned on hirelings at all.  You said it's due to party size, so I assume you want them to be combat-capable.  Really, the only possibility that jumps to mind is Quintin (who has been tasked with taking over an Alchemy store, so he wouldn't want to leave town).

I suppose Quintin could be "persuaded" that he has to go out and make a name for himself, or find some truly exotic ingredients to make such a small-town operation a lure for customers, something along those lines to the point that he temporarily closes shop.  It wouldn't be too extreme to assume his departing master left him a sum with which to set up, and then took the bulk of the current merchandise.  Still, he's not terribly useful as is.  Can't disable traps, can't open locks, can't fight, can't cast.  If you're okay with it, I could progress him as an Artificer after things get underway, but he won't come into his own for a bit (especially since he starts as a Commoner 1).

It'd be easier just to hire a merc or something, but my character has no reason to do so.  Could just play things by ear and see if any likely NPCs crop up down the road, or leave the hireling business to the rest of the party.

[Brainpiercing]

Playing it by ear will certainly work, too. I think those people who seek for power and influence may be more in need of hirelings. I think your character won't need one, although of course Quintin could become one .

There is a basic conflict between myself playing the NPCs providing services to the players, and the players playing these themselves. Hirelings give players the opportunity to do be more influential than their pure level and abilities suggest. When you think on the scale your character thinks and ask yourself whether he wants more power and influence, and if the answer is yes, then hirelings are an option you should think about.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

Hmm...he would certainly see the benefits of making and retaining contacts and allies, but I doubt he'd go dragging Quintin after him.  Really, being present through the apprentice's initial struggles should be leverage enough.  Why drag a possible ally and a certain liability through danger?

[Brainpiercing]

Of course there is no need to drag an obvious non-combatant through danger.

Just as a heads-up for everyone: I'm going to get some background story posts done in the next few days. In the meantime you guys can finish up your builds, possibly get my feedback on them, and also write up a short history of your characters.
Now there is still the question of confidential information. Since I can't restrict access to certain threads to certain people I'm going to collect the character information that is not public, and ask you to post it when keeping it confidential is no longer necessary or possible.

I also still need to finish up the house-rules section. If any of you have any good suggestions in that respect as to things that need regulation, please speak up.

As it is, the European soccer Championship is being held right now, so my evenings are kind of busy with watching the games. This of course leaves me with less time than I wanted for the campaign. But fear not, it won't go on for much longer, and afterwards I'll have lots of time.

@P-F-H: Concerning your question on how to carry a bow when not in use: Composite bows are not normally un-stringed. You carry the bow in stringed and bent form in special bow-quiver, a flat long leather bag that holds most of the bow and only leaves one end sticking out for easy access. You can also close the quiver completely to protect the bow from rain or other hazards (although of course in D&D terms these have no effect).

[Straw_Man]

Very snazzy intro. Well done!

[Snizor]

Very snazzy intro. Well done!

Quoted for truthiness!

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

*rubs hands with glee* Good stuff 

[Brainpiercing]

Many thanks for the praises.

While writing this intro I had to find out how desperately out of practice I am. It just took far too long. 

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

One point that confused me.  Was a human tied to each pyre?  It was a little unclear.

[Brainpiercing]

No, the humans were not in the same place. Maybe I should have made that more clear.

[Brainpiercing]

I want to ask you guys about PAO:

Basically what I envision is this:

Duration is changed to Instantaneous by default.
Casting time is increased to 24 hours +X (more like a ritual)

You can do any change you like with the spell.
Want a few more arms?
Want wings?
Want a certain template?
Want to be another race? Become a monster?

Now all this should have a cost (and as usually it will a cost in gp and Hitdice, since I'm mostly exchanging LA for RHD). However, while you immediately gain the HD, you don't gain any XP with it, so you have to catch up with the XP (or save up XP ahead of time).

A pair of limbs (arms, legs, wings) will add one RHD.
A template will add it's increase in CR+n, where n is anything from 0 to 3, depending on the template. Some templates lack LA but DO advance CR, I'm not sure about those, yet.
Changing your race will add the new races LA in HD+1, and presumably change existing RHD into the new RHD.
Turning into a monster will add the monsters CR+2 in HD, and change all stats except Wis and Cha to those of the monster. (Yeah, you can become logically smarter, but not more wise, nor more charismatic.) Perhaps you will have to give up class levels if the change is too extensive.
Adding six points of physical stats or Int adds one RHD.

If you change yourself too much you should probably become an Aberration.

Obviously there should be a limit, and I'm not sure on that yet.

Also, a suitable downside to adding lots of HD is necessary, presumably over and above having the catch up with XP.

There is also the problem that RHD are very inequivalent. Changing into Dragon or Outsider RHD is much better than humanoid, for instance.

Discuss!

By way of explanation: I've always had a problem with the basically restrictive attitude by which most RPGs structure their rulesets. This stems from the obvious abundance of munchkin players, but also from the roots of RPGs as dungeon crawl table-top games. In those games creating a sort of balance is necessary.
However, in a true ROLEplaying game, balance is actually a secondary requirement. The real requirement is for everyone to have fun. Rulesets should do their best at making that possible.

And lets face it: D&D doesn't have balance. It has a ton of rules, and a ton of possibilities of working around almost every restriction there is. So it's not that big of a deal to enable people to do stuff they shouldn't be capable of doing from a balance point of view. The real deal is what I've been advocating ever since I registered over at Gleemax: Responsible use. The rules will allow you to do any number of things. But you don't have to use them if you KNOW you'll ruin everybody else's fun doing so.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

I like your approach to the rules and I like the reflavoring of PaO as a ritual--it fits, given the awesome power of the spell.  It also means you have to have appropriate hirelings and defenses if you want to turn into something big and scary, and people have wind of it.  I definitely like the flavor of, say, adding wings.

As far as the mechanics, I'm adrift when it comes to HD vs levels.  What does a "racial Hit Die" consist of?  BAB?  Saves?  I vaguely remember there being definitions for different types (i.e. Outsiders are full BAB, right?), but not where that information was.

Are you saying if you turned from a Human into a Strongheart Halfling, you would gain a HD (LA 0, +1), keep your Human bonus feat, and add your Halfling bonus feat?  A feat is nice, but does the HD include any BAB, saves, skills, or anything else?  For me, it's more a matter of being too unfamiliar with those rules to really critique effectively.

As to the limiting factors...a physical score, a mental score, and the caster level of the person casting the spell?  I really think it should factor in multiple considerations, so you can't pump one stat and start altering yourself out the wazoo.  Or we can just use the "DM/Player discretion" rule, which may actually be better.  What could your individual character take without subsuming his identity and going insane?

I also don't know that wings, for example, should carry much of a hit.  By the time you're getting access to PaO, flight isn't a huge deal.  Casters can use it willy-nilly, and magic items that grant it are easily within your budget.  There are some templates and modifications that just wouldn't be worth a lot at that point in the game.

Now, becoming a Dragon is another boat entirely--and that would strike me as more of an ongoing quest...you spend most of your time in your "original" form (go go Alternate Form), and when you shift to your new Draconic form it's largely an exercise in control, including "how do these things control four limbs, a tail, and wings?!"  Plus, you'd be mocked and ridiculed by "real" dragons, and more than likely hunted as an abomination.

I really think the fundamental flaw amongst the Polymorph spells is trying too hard to pin fast rules onto it.  It seems more like a case-by-case thing, once you get to the higher-power stuff.  The game has a DM for a reason, and this really seems like a field where things should be talked out.  Maybe even make a subforum in here for "rules discussions?"

[Akula]

As a limiting factor, perhaps you could take a maximum "LA" of earned level+Wisdom or Charisma modifier, exceed the limit and your personality fragments. I think wisdom would be apropriate because it represents mental endurance, but charisma would also work because it is "sense of self." I don't know which one I would use. Overall I like the reflavor, It strikes me as something that highlevel magic should be able to do...and I just like ritual spells. I'm not sure about final balance (ha, as if that really existed) as something like this really needs a playtest. Perhaps an agreement among all of the participants not to break the rule? If we all just made a promise not to take things too far and then laid out what that meant. I figure that a promise not to go beyond limit X is about as good as a rule installing limit X as a hard and fast thing.