Ask a simple question: Monty Python edition

[weenog]

Your disposition is wrong.  You might just as well say you don't get the AC from a Defending weapon if it's in your offhand and you also use the Two-Weapon Defense feat.

It is?

What you advised is incorrect as the AC bonuses come from different sources.

Actually, by your logic, they both come from the same source: the weapon.  Nevermind that one is a shield bonus that actually comes from a feat, and the other is an untyped bonus that comes from converting the weapon's enhancement bonus.  The same weapon is elevating your AC twice.  It is like having two Dex bonuses added to your AC.

[Contranym]

In the case of Swordsage and Monk, this bonus theoretically would come down to combat training to avoid getting hit. Hence you are wise enough to get out of the way.

So what I'm looking for is a reason that they would stack.

They don't. The Monk AC bonus requires you to be unarmored, and the Swordsage one requires you to wear light armor.

Haha. Ahh yes. Very true. Ok another example: Iaijutsu Master Int to AC. Monk with Kung-Fu Genius feat gets Int to AC as well. Lets throw in FoTF as well for Con to AC.

Say this character has an 18 Int and an 18 Con. This would be +4 from Monk, +4 from Iaijutsu Master and +4 from FoTF. Total: +12 to AC.

Now this would come down to combat training (FoTF is just like the Monk Ability and refers to this in CC). So why would this character get +12?

Firstly he's getting +8 from Int from two class abilities. Why do they not supersede instead of stack?
They are both from Int despite being two class features.

And he's getting two versions of the Monk Ability for +8. Why do these not supersede as well?
They are both as per Monk Ability despite different classes giving these.

they stack because RAW. also, there are specific rules for determining when things do not stack. a) same bonus type(other than untyped, b) same source, c) called out by specific exception.

note that ninja is specifically called out as not stacking with monk.



deepwarden and FotF are untyped. they are NOT the same source. they are not called out by specific exception. ergo, they stack.

Ahh. But they are from the same source are they not? They are from the characters Constitution score. Or do you count the class ability as the source?

Actually, by your logic, they both come from the same source: the weapon.  Nevermind that one is a shield bonus that actually comes from a feat, and the other is an untyped bonus that comes from converting the weapon's enhancement bonus.  The same weapon is elevating your AC twice.  It is like having two Dex bonuses added to your AC.

Not exactly. One is distinctly from a Feat. The other is from the Weapons abilities. But I understand what you are trying to say.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I had a discussion about this with my DM and I am using his point of view to try to get an answer for him.

[Nanshork]

In the case of Swordsage and Monk, this bonus theoretically would come down to combat training to avoid getting hit. Hence you are wise enough to get out of the way.

So what I'm looking for is a reason that they would stack.

They don't. The Monk AC bonus requires you to be unarmored, and the Swordsage one requires you to wear light armor.

Haha. Ahh yes. Very true. Ok another example: Iaijutsu Master Int to AC. Monk with Kung-Fu Genius feat gets Int to AC as well. Lets throw in FoTF as well for Con to AC.

Say this character has an 18 Int and an 18 Con. This would be +4 from Monk, +4 from Iaijutsu Master and +4 from FoTF. Total: +12 to AC.

Now this would come down to combat training (FoTF is just like the Monk Ability and refers to this in CC). So why would this character get +12?

Firstly he's getting +8 from Int from two class abilities. Why do they not supersede instead of stack?
They are both from Int despite being two class features.

And he's getting two versions of the Monk Ability for +8. Why do these not supersede as well?
They are both as per Monk Ability despite different classes giving these.

they stack because RAW. also, there are specific rules for determining when things do not stack. a) same bonus type(other than untyped, b) same source, c) called out by specific exception.

note that ninja is specifically called out as not stacking with monk.



deepwarden and FotF are untyped. they are NOT the same source. they are not called out by specific exception. ergo, they stack.

Ahh. But they are from the same source are they not? They are from the characters Constitution score. Or do you count the class ability as the source?

Actually, by your logic, they both come from the same source: the weapon.  Nevermind that one is a shield bonus that actually comes from a feat, and the other is an untyped bonus that comes from converting the weapon's enhancement bonus.  The same weapon is elevating your AC twice.  It is like having two Dex bonuses added to your AC.

Not exactly. One is distinctly from a Feat. The other is from the Weapons abilities. But I understand what you are trying to say.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I had a discussion about this with my DM and I am using his point of view to try to get an answer for him.

Bingo.

[snakeman830]

IIajitsu Master's AC bonus is added with the Dex bonus (so when flat-footed, he would lose it).  It also only applies while wielding a katana.  It will stack with Carmadine/Kung-Fu Genius.

Likewise, FotF AC bonus stacks with a Monk's because they are clearly different abilities, despite having the same name (one uses Con, the other Wis).  It's like Fast Movement:  Barbarian and Monk speed boosts stack despite both abilities having the same name (one is untyped, the other is Enhancement).

[weenog]

Not exactly. One is distinctly from a Feat. The other is from the Weapons abilities.

I don't see what's so special about a feat, especially not what makes it distinct from class features or magic item abilities.  Hell, some classes get feats and/or magic item abilities as their class features.

This, however...

I had a discussion about this with my DM and I am using his point of view to try to get an answer for him.

This suggests to me that maybe the details of AC stacking are irrelevant, and the problem is different.  Is it possible that your DM is balking not because he has any rules precedent to stand on, but simply because he thinks characters should have to make investments to get power, and (for whatever reason) thinks feats are more precious than class levels?

[Contranym]

Bingo.

Ok, but the next argument is that the class ability is, essentially, the same.

IIajitsu Master's AC bonus is added with the Dex bonus (so when flat-footed, he would lose it).  It also only applies while wielding a katana.  It will stack with Carmadine/Kung-Fu Genius.

Likewise, FotF AC bonus stacks with a Monk's because they are clearly different abilities, despite having the same name (one uses Con, the other Wis).  It's like Fast Movement:  Barbarian and Monk speed boosts stack despite both abilities having the same name (one is untyped, the other is Enhancement).

Ahh, here we go. This is what I need.

This also means that when he is not weilding the Katana he does not get the boost to AC doe it not? Or does he still get it because he has the Katana on his person and if he does not, then he loses it? What I am trying to ask is, do you need to be holding the sword to gain this? I would say yes but what is your opinion?

Not exactly. One is distinctly from a Feat. The other is from the Weapons abilities.

I don't see what's so special about a feat, especially not what makes it distinct from class features or magic item abilities.  Hell, some classes get feats and/or magic item abilities as their class features.

This, however...

I had a discussion about this with my DM and I am using his point of view to try to get an answer for him.

This suggests to me that maybe the details of AC stacking are irrelevant, and the problem is different.  Is it possible that your DM is balking not because he has any rules precedent to stand on, but simply because he thinks characters should have to make investments to get power, and (for whatever reason) thinks feats are more precious than class levels?

Almost. He is questioning that this swordsman should get a bonus to AC from Monk, Iaijutsu Master and FoTF(which is not in the build yet but I advised him that I would try to attain it).

He happily hands out powerful gear so that is a non-issue. His view is that you should not get Int to AC twice because this is the same as getting Dex to AC twice which you are unable to get. He puts this down to the source of the AC bonus being Int, not the class feature itself. Hence I could use normal Monk (Wis to AC), but this would require a decent Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis AND Cha. and also be no-where near as efficient.

[weenog]

I wonder what he thinks a high elf hexblade 7/blackguard 3 with Cha 22 and Force of Personality gets on its save against hold person.

[Contranym]

I wonder what he thinks a high elf hexblade 7/blackguard 3 with Cha 22 and Force of Personality gets on its save against hold person.

Lol. Don't get me started.

Thanks guys. I think that is enough to continue our discussion.

weenog, snakeman830, Nanshork, Anklebite, Phaenix, Lunaramblings, I hold you all in high esteem. Thanks again.

[snakeman830]

This also means that when he is not weilding the Katana he does not get the boost to AC doe it not? Or does he still get it because he has the Katana on his person and if he does not, then he loses it? What I am trying to ask is, do you need to be holding the sword to gain this? I would say yes but what is your opinion?

OA is very direct in stating "wielding a katana".  This clearly means having it ready for use.  Now, if it said "carrying a katana", then there would be questions raised, but it specifically says "wielding".

So, when he isn't wielding the katana, he does not get his Iiajitsu master AC bonus, but the others would apply as they don't have that restriction.

[Nameless Void]

Q64:

Can a Construct get regeneration or Fast Healing?

Q65:

Can any spell that targets a creature also target a Construct as long as it is not something the construct is immune to?

[Havok4]

Q64:

Can a Construct get regeneration or Fast Healing?

Q65:

Can any spell that targets a creature also target a Construct as long as it is not something the construct is immune to?

A64: You cannot have regeneration unless you have a con score but fast healing is fine. For constructs with a con score regeneration works.
A65: Yes as constructs are creatures.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You get both unless the abilities are identical, or state otherwise.  

For example, ninja and monk don't stack because they explicitly state they don't.  Monk's belt and monk don't stack because it's the same ability.  On the other hand, swordsage's "AC bonus" stacks with ninja's "AC bonus" because, although they have the same name, they're different abilities.  


Or, for another example, there's a spell that lets you give an ally your charisma bonus to a single saving throw.  A paladin would apply their charisma bonus twice to that save, since they have "divine grace".

[Nameless Void]

Q64:

Can a Construct get regeneration or Fast Healing?

Q65:

Can any spell that targets a creature also target a Construct as long as it is not something the construct is immune to?

A64: You cannot have regeneration unless you have a con score but fast healing is fine. For constructs with a con score regeneration works.
A65: Yes as constructs are creatures.

Q66:

Continuation from Q64. Can you give a construct Fast Healing as an Ex ability?

[weenog]

According to the monster manual, Fast Healing is an extraordinary ability.  The shield guardian is a construct that has it normally, I'm not sure how you would grant it to a construct that doesn't have it though.

[ksbsnowowl]

According to the monster manual, Fast Healing is an extraordinary ability.  The shield guardian is a construct that has it normally, I'm not sure how you would grant it to a construct that doesn't have it though.

Shadow Creature? Don't know if that can be applied to a construct (doubt it).

[Nameless Void]

According to the monster manual, Fast Healing is an extraordinary ability.  The shield guardian is a construct that has it normally, I'm not sure how you would grant it to a construct that doesn't have it though.

Shadow Creature? Don't know if that can be applied to a construct (doubt it).

An Effigy?

[TheMasaoL]

How is it that CL can surpass HD and where can i find a straight up printed ruling of this?

[Unbeliever]

How is it that CL can surpass HD and where can i find a straight up printed ruling of this?

Why wouldn't it be able to?  There's no rule against it. 

Do you just need an example?  How about the Paragon Troll from ELH.  Any paragon low-HD creature should do the trick.  I'm sure there are others, but that's the first one that sprung to mind.

There's also any character w/ an ECL -- their CR is technically equal to their level, yet they have fewer HD. 

[TheMasaoL]

How is it that CL can surpass HD and where can i find a straight up printed ruling of this?

Why wouldn't it be able to?  There's no rule against it. 

Do you just need an example?  How about the Paragon Troll from ELH.  Any paragon low-HD creature should do the trick.  I'm sure there are others, but that's the first one that sprung to mind.

There's also any character w/ an ECL -- their CR is technically equal to their level, yet they have fewer HD. 

Thank you I think i can use that.

[Phirsole]

Q 67:

I own the German translation of the Spell Compendium, and have a question to one of the spells: CLE 7, "Brilliant Cascade" (or called something similar) deals 1d6 untyped damage in an area (long range, up to 15d6 in a 40' radius spread) from a cascade of light.  The German spell description reads: "Creatures in the area are stunned 1d6 rounds if they fail the will save. If they succeed, they are blinded for 1d6 rounds and take only half damage. Creatures lacking sight are immune to the spell."

Q: Is the translation correct? Or is it "dazzled" instead of "blinded"? 'Cause "blinded" with a successful save in a HUGE area seems to be... very powerful. The damage is just icing on the fact of "stun or be blinded" at high level play. It would be more useful than, let's say, "Power Word Blind" (close range, ONE target with 101-200 HP is blinded d4+1 rounds).