Optimized Party Woes

[PhaedrusXY]

It sounds awesome, actually. Mechanically, it is pretty much identical to the Ur-Priest. So if you think Ur-Priest is balanced then this is by definition.

The SF: Evil is probably more powerful than the Servant of the Fallen benefit for the typical "I eet ur bebies" Ur-Priest. Of course, both are very minor.

Fluff-wise, I like it considerably more than the standard Ur-Priest.

I agree about dropping the evil alignment prereq, also.

[LargePrime]

After reading through Sword and Fist the player insisted on taking a level of Weapon Master. They made the very good argument that I had allowed 3.0 classes before (i.e. Heartwarder) and was therefore not opposed to it.
I told him that I didn't think the class was very good for his build, but he was adamant. After taking a level, he announced that he was using his Ki attack to do max damage and informed me that he had done 130 damage (2 attacks with Frost Rapier +1, off-hand Rapier +1, 4d6 sneak attack).
I told him that, according to my interpretation of the class feature, it only applied to one attack and it only applied to weapon damage. Sneak attack damage and cold damage still had to be rolled normally. He was very upset, but I still think it's a reasonable interpretation of the class feature. Now he wants to trade that level away for his intended level of Dervish.

The problem here is a lack of communication.  Might I suggest you, as I do, have a conversation with the player (every player even) about the expected abilities of the character.  You need to get them to lay their cards on the table about what they think the character can do and discussing it with them and the group.

This problem will likely continue until you have a frank open discussion on this.

[weenog]

I also like the fluff/flavour significantly more than the standard Ur-Priest.

Though I admit my inner wiseass now wants to play a Disciple of the Fallen, name myself as the forgotten god in question, and get involved in one of those big personal vendetta quests where I try to bring down an existing deity I don't like.

[McPoyo]

I also like the fluff/flavour significantly more than the standard Ur-Priest.

Though I admit my inner wiseass now wants to play a Disciple of the Fallen, name myself as the forgotten god in question, and get involved in one of those big personal vendetta quests where I try to bring down all the existing deities.

Ftfy.

Just remember what happened to Karsus, though.

[Cuindless]

Ahhh... back home with my books now. The wife saw me sit down and open about 9 of them and said, "Oh... are you optimizing?" I love being married to a gamer.

Okay, looking over the class features of the Ur-Priest, there definitely need to be some other changes. I'm going to change the alignment restriction from "any evil" to "as patron deity". It makes sense that someone so devoted to a fallen deity would need to be of the same alignment as that deity. Thanks to Weenog and Phaedrus for pointing that out to me. It is much appreciated.

Rebuke undead seems a little strange. Would it make sense for a Disciple of Amaunator (dead deity of order and the sun) to be able to rebuke undead like an evil cleric? I'd have to tailor the replacement class feature to each deity, though. With the Druidic theme, for example, would being able to rebuke and control plants and animals be a good replacement? Steal Spell Power also seems strange. What would be a balanced replacement for that?

Very funny, Weenog, but it wouldn't work that way at my table. The deity has to be previously established and dead... Of course, does that mean that a Balewight could take this PrC? Hmm... they are undead aspects of Bhaal, after all...

[Akalsaris]

Just as a sidenote, I've always preferred the adaptation fluff to the actual fluff for ur-priest.  Every time I've worked out an ur-priest build, it was with the image that he was an ur-priest of bane, bhaal, myrkul, moander, etc. 

[weenog]

I think Rebuke Thing should probably stay, though what the thing is should vary by deity.  Possibly you could have the rebuke work against followers of and planar allies sent by the deity you're stealing from, as a sort of defense mechanism as well as rubbing their noses in you being powerful/skillful enough to get away with this sort of thing. ("Cower before Henry the Heretic! Malar loathes and wishes to destroy me, and He can't manage it; what chance do you sycophantic fools have?")

I got no specific suggestions for a replacement for Steal Spell-Like Ability.  I do think the replacement feature should vary by deity, sphere of influence, or alignment, and it should be something fairly badass.  It is the capstone ability for a 10-level PrC, after all, and (while I don't think it should be forced) there should be some incentive for sticking a PrC out to the end, besides just "the DM won't bitch at me for dipping PrCs without finishing them."  Do what you think is appealing and useful without being over the top.  Possibly ask your players what they might want as a capstone ability, if they were playing Disciple of the Fallen for various deities.

[PhaedrusXY]

I think Rebuke Thing should probably stay, though what the thing is should vary by deity.  Possibly you could have the rebuke work against followers of and planar allies sent by the deity you're stealing from, as a sort of defense mechanism as well as rubbing their noses in you being powerful/skillful enough to get away with this sort of thing. ("Cower before Henry the Heretic! Malar loathes and wishes to destroy me, and He can't manage it; what chance do you sycophantic fools have?")

I think this is hilarious and flavorful. I would probably put in a clause which says that it works to power Divine feats, unless you're looking to nerf the Ur-Priest. It is about as situational and subject to DM whim as the standard Rebuke Undead also, or maybe even more so.

I got no specific suggestions for a replacement for Steal Spell-Like Ability.  I do think the replacement feature should vary by deity, sphere of influence, or alignment, and it should be something fairly badass.  It is the capstone ability for a 10-level PrC, after all, and (while I don't think it should be forced) there should be some incentive for sticking a PrC out to the end, besides just "the DM won't bitch at me for dipping PrCs without finishing them."  Do what you think is appealing and useful without being over the top.  Possibly ask your players what they might want as a capstone ability, if they were playing Disciple of the Fallen for various deities.

I don't really know what you should replace this with, either, and I doubt it will come up as most people don't go take Ur-Priest past 2nd level. I'd probably just leave it as-is, unless you just feel like tinkering with it.

[McPoyo]

Possibly ask your players what they might want as a capstone ability, if they were playing Disciple of the Fallen for various deities.

Divine Rank 0. I would totally stick through the class if it made me a demigod.

[weenog]

Possibly ask your players what they might want as a capstone ability, if they were playing Disciple of the Fallen for various deities.

Divine Rank 0. I would totally stick through the class if it made me a demigod.

That might be a wee bit over the top, but I like it.  Becoming a hero/quasi-deity certainly fits into the theme of being the champion of a destroyed/forgotten god and trying to revive it.  This could even lead into an epic extension where you gradually gain more and more godly powers and in effect become the rebirth of your god yourself, ultimately succeeding in your revival goal.

[PhaedrusXY]

Possibly ask your players what they might want as a capstone ability, if they were playing Disciple of the Fallen for various deities.

Divine Rank 0. I would totally stick through the class if it made me a demigod.

How about: You conduct a ritual which culminates with your patron deity being returned to life. In gratitude, you are granted the ability to cast Miracle once per day as a SLA.

[McPoyo]

I could do that via another class, though, like Dweomerkeeper, building off an Ur-priest splash.

[weenog]

Just as a sidenote, I've always preferred the adaptation fluff to the actual fluff for ur-priest.  Every time I've worked out an ur-priest build, it was with the image that he was an ur-priest of bane, bhaal, myrkul, moander, etc. 

I think there are some edge cases in which standard ur-priest's fluff is better.  Every now and then I consider doing some sort of savage bard/ur-priest setup to try and make a PC lich that doesn't suck, despite that crippling +4 LA.  The overwhelming arrogance and power madness of a typical lich goes better with the standard UP, IMO.

[Cuindless]

Divine Rank 0... I'm strangely comfortable with this idea. That's not bad at all.

I just received an e-mail from Brad, who is sold on the idea, but skeptical that we can make the build work (mwahahahaha!). Okay, so here's the challenge:

2 Base Classes: Bard and Druid
5 PrCs: Spelldancer (2), Green Whisperer, Disciple of the Fallen (10), Sublime Chord (1) and Fochlucan Lyrist (1).
6 feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility, Iron Will and Servant of the Fallen.

How can we fit them all into one level 20 build?

[Littha]

That would be difficult to say the least, last i tried it ended up with something like:
Bard 7/Rouge 2/Druid 1/Ur Priest 1/Sublime chord 1/Lyrist 8 but im sure there are better ways around it

[weenog]

I got nothing.  Not sufficiently familiar with the PrCs in question, sorry.

[PhaedrusXY]

Divine Rank 0... I'm strangely comfortable with this idea. That's not bad at all.

I just received an e-mail from Brad, who is sold on the idea, but skeptical that we can make the build work (mwahahahaha!). Okay, so here's the challenge:

2 Base Classes: Bard and Druid
5 PrCs: Spelldancer (2), Green Whisperer, Disciple of the Fallen (10), Sublime Chord (1) and Fochlucan Lyrist (1).
6 feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility, Iron Will and Servant of the Fallen.

How can we fit them all into one level 20 build?

What's the point of Foch. Lyr. if you're taking 10 levels of Disciple of the Fallen? It is of course nearly impossible to fit all that into one build, as well as pointless.

[McPoyo]

It's doable, you just have to use rebuilding to end up with only prcs instead of base classes through self-qualification.

Whether or not it's a good idea, however...

[Cuindless]

Rouge? What Splatbook is that in?  

Seriously, though, I'm really trying to do it, and it looks damn near impossible... Spelldancer is just so damn feat intensive. Since Ur-Priest causes a loss of all prior divine spellcasting ability, it might be better to take a couple levels of Rogue or Monk to get evasion that way. Maintaining spellcasting is just not worth the feat investment.

This makes the build as follows:

1   Rogue or Monk - Feats open.
2   Rogue or Monk
3   Druid - Servant of the Fallen
4   Druid
5   Druid
6   Bard - Feat open. Spellbreaker Song and Bardic Knack variants.
7   Bard
8   Green Whisperer
9   Green Whisperer - Iron Will
10   Disciple of the Fallen
11   Sublime Chord
12   FL - Feat open
13   FL
14   FL
15   FL - Feat open
16   FL
17   FL
18   FL - Fear open
19   FL
20   FL

Does that look workable? For feat suggestions I have Versatile Spellcaster, Initiate of Nature, Melodic Casting, Practiced Spellcaster... what else? I know there are a lot of good ones out there, but my mind is drawing a blank.

[PhaedrusXY]

How about Factotum (for the druidic language prereq) and a Ring of Evasion for entering Foch. Lyr.?

I don't remember what Green Whisperer gives other than druid+bard casting progression, but it seems like it is at least somewhat counterproductive when combined with Ur-Priest, as you're losing the druidic casting anyway.