Optimized Party Woes

[Cuindless]

Fellow Optimizers,

I'm currently running a game for a group of highly optimized characters. Each player was requested to submit a build before the game began. I made it very clear that they weren't required to stick to the build, i.e. that it wasn't ironclad, but I just wanted to get an idea of what everyone would be doing. This was the initial party breakdown:

Human Rogue3/Swashbuckler4/Dervish10/Tempest3
Human CloisteredCleric16/ChurchInquisitor1/Contemplative1/Warpriest2
Whisper Gnome FocusedConjurer6/MasterSpecialist4/ParagnosticApostle1/MageOfTheArcaneOrder7/Archmage2
Lesser Earth Genasi Barbarian4/Fighter2/FrenziedBerserker10/BearWarrior4
Half-Elf Bard6/LyricThaumaturge2/SublimeChord2/Heartwarder10

The party is currently level 8, and there are two issues. The first is the Human Rogue/Swashbuckler. After reading through Sword and Fist the player insisted on taking a level of Weapon Master. They made the very good argument that I had allowed 3.0 classes before (i.e. Heartwarder) and was therefore not opposed to it. I told him that I didn't think the class was very good for his build, but he was adamant. After taking a level, he announced that he was using his Ki attack to do max damage and informed me that he had done 130 damage (2 attacks with Frost Rapier +1, off-hand Rapier +1, 4d6 sneak attack). I told him that, according to my interpretation of the class feature, it only applied to one attack and it only applied to weapon damage. Sneak attack damage and cold damage still had to be rolled normally. He was very upset, but I still think it's a reasonable interpretation of the class feature. Now he wants to trade that level away for his intended level of Dervish. Would you, as DMs and optimizers, allow this? On the one hand, I don't want him to fall behind the rest of the group, but on the other hand I don't want all my players to think that I'll just let them undo bad optimization decisions.

The other issue involves Half-Elf Bard character. The player left the area, so we had to take her out of the game. She recommended a friend of hers to join the group, who we met and talked to and discovered that he was a pretty cool guy. We agreed to let him in, but he wants to play this build:

Human Bard2/Druid3/GreenWhisperer3/Spelldancer2/FochlucanLyrist10

1   Bard - Combat Casting, Dodge, Spellbreaker Song and Bardic Knack variants
2   Bard
3   Druid - Endurance
4   Druid
5   Druid
6   Green Whisperer - Mobility
7   Green Whisperer
8   Green Whisperer
9   Spelldancer - Natural Spell
10   Spelldancer
11   FL
12   FL - Melodic Casting
13   FL
14   FL
15   FL - Initiate of Nature
16   FL
17   FL
18   FL - Versatile Spellcaster
19   FL
20   FL

I... I don't know what to think of this. Is this even playable? I did a google search of BG for Fochlucan Lyrist tips and found some that I thought were interesting, but he really wants to play the build as is. Is there something I'm missing? We already have an 8th level full divine caster and an 8th level full arcane caster. Playing a gimped 5th level arcane caster / 6th level divine caster seems... it just seems bad. What do you think I should do?

[PhaedrusXY]

I don't want all my players to think that I'll just let them undo bad optimization decisions.

Why not? Let them play what they want. They shouldn't be stuck playing a character that they don't like. That doesn't make anyone happy. And it wasn't a bad decision, given his (incorrect) assumption as to how the ability worked. It was just an ill-informed decision. I think you'd be a bit of a douche not to let him retrain the level.

The guy with the fochluchan lyricist build sounds like he knows what he wants, so let him play it. If he moves Versatile Spellcaster up a bit in his progression, it might help quite a bit, though, since he can apply it to both druid and bard spellcasting.

[Fluffles]

Doesn't FL require Evasion in it's pre-reqs?

[Cuindless]

2nd level of Spelldancer grants Evasion.

I see what you're saying, Phaedrus, and it makes sense. My only worry is that the build is woefully weak compared to the rest of the party... especially the Whisper Gnome Focused Conjurer. That build is optimized out the wazoo. So it's a Catch 22, really. Either I tell him that the build isn't appropriate for my game and he isn't happy, or he plays the build as is and might be unhappy.

[weenog]

RE: the crappy Weapon Master, dangle an obvious opportunity for a rebuild (not retraining) quest in front of the group.  Don't make it easy on 'em.  If he can manage to do it solo, or convince the others to help him, good for him, he gets to change his level to something that doesn't suck (bonus: everyone else has the same opportunity if they helped, so nobody can bitch that you're being unfairly lenient to him alone).  If not, so sad, too bad.

RE: the Fochluchan Lyricist, let him give it a try if he wants it so badly.  Strongly suggest to him ahead of time that he have a backup character ready to go (offer to help with the planning and/or initial building phases if you like), and play the dice as they fall, don't pull your punches for him.  Either he'll show you he knows something you don't, or he'll wind up a greasy smear on the road and come back with something (hopefully) more suitable to the level you're gaming at.

[Havok4]

On the issue of the swashbuckler, he made that decision based on his interpretation of the rules and you have a different interpretation. This is due to a lack of communication between you two and should be considered a misunderstanding, so I would think it perfectly reasonable to let him change it.

[weenog]

Miscommunication does suggest a bit more lenience, but it can also set a bad precedent.  You can wind up with one or more players moaning "I didn't know that's what you meant, let me change my mind retroactively" any time they try something silly and it fails miserably.  If you don't think that's likely to be a problem, then yeah, you should probably just say go ahead and switch the level but be more careful in the future.  If you're not feeling so trusting/charitable, a rebuild quest (pitched at an appropriate enhanced difficulty for the optimized group) is a decent compromise between letting him have it, and denying him a Get Out Of Dumb Free card.

[gorfnad]

Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Fochlucan Lyrist 8
This way he would at least get 9th level arcane spells. Also, why does your build have Natural Spell since neither Green Whisperer nor F. Lyrist give/advance wildshape? I would say look into Snowflake Wardance if at all possible.

[Cuindless]

I did not notice that, Gorfnad. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll point that out to him.... Better yet, I'll send him a link here and let him join in on the conversation if he wants.

[Havok4]

Miscommunication does suggest a bit more lenience, but it can also set a bad precedent.  You can wind up with one or more players moaning "I didn't know that's what you meant, let me change my mind retroactively" any time they try something silly and it fails miserably.  If you don't think that's likely to be a problem, then yeah, you should probably just say go ahead and switch the level but be more careful in the future.  If you're not feeling so trusting/charitable, a rebuild quest (pitched at an appropriate enhanced difficulty for the optimized group) is a decent compromise between letting him have it, and denying him a Get Out Of Dumb Free card.

I would suggest that you let him change it this time without too much bother but give the warning that you will not let future slip ups go quite as easily. Also he is likely to be the weakest character anyway (he is useless against crit immune creatures, or creatures with damage reduction)  so I would given him some extra leniency anyway.

[Cuindless]

He has the penetrating strike feature to deal with crit immune creatures, so no worries there. I'm probably going to allow him to do it this time because it really was a misunderstanding between us rather than a fully informed bad decision.

As for Snowflake Wardance, I don't think his character ever intends on joining in melee. What are some good spellcasting feats to help the build out?

[weenog]

Practiced Spellcaster is a pretty obvious one, possibly multiple times.

[Cuindless]

Practiced Spellcaster... I'm an idiot. It's so obvious the build is practically screaming it.

[Endarire]

Inform the Druid that his build is likely too weak to compete, and gently warn him against it if you believe it to be bad.  Don't stop him from playing it as-is, unless something is illegal.

[Littha]

If he is really set on the lyrist why not suggest a more optimized approach to it, possibly one that goes through Ur-Priest and Sublime chord... I know you can hit both of those on the way through though last time i tried i was stuck at 15 bab (with 9th level arcane and dvine spells ofc)

[Cuindless]

I suggested the Ur-Priest route, but he was against that. He didn't like the idea of "stealing" spells from a deity. He's still considering Sublime Chord, though. I've told him to come here and post to this thread, but he appears hesitant to do so. I'm not sure he's too keen on optimization, for some reason. I've got Milo (he built the Conjurer monster) working with him, though. That guy is just a maven at this stuff.

[Littha]

you have to remember that the fluff is mutable to whatever the DM wants it to be, if you want Ur-priest to just be a fast cleric advancement class then that would work to so long as you left the requirements just as difficult.

[Cuindless]

I'm actually a bit stricter and more conservative than most DMs regarding that. As far as I'm concerned, fluff is RAW too. It's explicitly stated in the description of the class features that an Ur-Priest "steals" divine spells from the Gods. Mechanically it's no different, but it is an explicit indicator of the class. This isn't really the forum to debate whether fluff counts as RAW, but just know that at my table fluff isn't mutable.

[McPoyo]

There's an adaptation section that throws everything you just said out the window.

[weenog]

I'm actually a bit stricter and more conservative than most DMs regarding that. As far as I'm concerned, fluff is RAW too. It's explicitly stated in the description of the class features that an Ur-Priest "steals" divine spells from the Gods. Mechanically it's no different, but it is an explicit indicator of the class. This isn't really the forum to debate whether fluff counts as RAW, but just know that at my table fluff isn't mutable.

With the power to do something like that, comes the responsibility to make near-duplicate classes with similar abilities and all new fluff, if even you're suggesting a class to the guy that he doesn't like due to the fluff that you're forcing on him.

Lighten up or get off your lazy butt and create. Don't sit there telling him he should do something and then refuse to meet him halfway because your hands are tied by the almighty fluff.