Optimized Party Woes

[Cuindless]

Our play styles differ, and that's fine. At any rate, I suggested Ur-Priest to him because of playability and power level, he rejected that idea because he doesn't like stealing spells from deities. Case closed on that. I don't home brew a lot of material. Call that laziness if you want. Thank you for the criticism regardless, Weenog, even if I consider it a bit heavy handed.

McPoyo: Where's the adaption section? I must be blind because I'm not seeing it.

[Solo]

The adaptation section for Ur Priest is on page 70 in the Complete Divine under the section labeled "Adaptation", right above Requirements and 2/3rds down the page on the lefthand side.

[Anklebite]

The adaptation section for Ur Priest is on page 70 in the Complete Divine under the section labeled "Adaptation", right above Requirements and 2/3rds down the page on the lefthand side.

that was... specific.

[weenog]

That ain't even heavy handed, you're lucky PhoenixInferno isn't around.  However, I do acknowledge that I could and should have been more diplomatic about that.  Sorry.

But just to show that I'm not simply ripping into you with nothing behind what I say, here's some stuff for you to look up that suggests both fluff and mechanics as presented are not inviolable laws.

• Adapting Prestige Classes - Complete Divine, pages 20-21
• The Adaptation entry Solo already mentioned
• Customizing Your Character - Player's Handbook, page 110
• Changing The Rules - Dungeonmaster's Guide, page 14
• Creating New Classes - Dungeonmaster's Guide, pages 175-176 (in fact, just re-read the entire Classes section from DMG page 174 to 197)

There's plenty more loitering around, but I'm very tired and very ill, and don't feel like putting in much effort for a game I'm not even playing.  The main thing to remember, though, is that if you're going to essentially say that what's written in the books -- even the non mechanical flavour stuff -- has veto power over DM fiat, then you've got to pay attention to all of it that's written there, including the stuff that says you can and should modify things to better fit your game and players, and/or make up new stuff entirely.  To do anything less is to shirk your responsibility as DM, regardless of how it's justified.

[McPoyo]

Or you'll end up with a game that's so RaW that you lose control over it entirely because there's a better optimized somewhere in the party.

[Cuindless]

Thank you Solo and Weenog for your assistance. I'm going to review what you've sent me and think about it further. I don't know how I feel about accelerated spellcasting prestige classes without fluff and or mechanical limitations. I'll read through the adaption on page 70 and the stuff Weenog brought up and get back to Brad with a ruling on Ur-Priest. He might take that if I adapt it a little.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and putting so much effort into a game you're not even playing in. I really do appreciate it, even the criticism.

[weenog]

If you like fluff limitations, why not make a functionally ur priest-like class that's tied to the service one (or a few)* appropriate deities for a focluchan lyrist, and require following a code of conduct that will keep members' behaviour in line with the aims of the deities that grant this accelerated casting?

*If you're willing to put in the extra time and effort for a more versatile home brew prestige class, you could even do like the Eldeen Ranger in ECS, and have different versions of the class with different abilities depending on which organization (faith) you belong to.

If you do this, try to make it a very clear-cut list of what's required and what's forbidden, not like the vague trap-laden CoC given for paladin in the PHB.

[Anklebite]

Thank you Solo and Weenog for your assistance. I'm going to review what you've sent me and think about it further. I don't know how I feel about accelerated spellcasting prestige classes without fluff and or mechanical limitations. I'll read through the adaption on page 70 and the stuff Weenog brought up and get back to Brad with a ruling on Ur-Priest. He might take that if I adapt it a little.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and putting so much effort into a game you're not even playing in. I really do appreciate it, even the criticism.

for a fluff limitation, have there be as much discrimination against whatever dead god he worships as there is against divine spellstealers.

[weenog]

Thank you Solo and Weenog for your assistance. I'm going to review what you've sent me and think about it further. I don't know how I feel about accelerated spellcasting prestige classes without fluff and or mechanical limitations. I'll read through the adaption on page 70 and the stuff Weenog brought up and get back to Brad with a ruling on Ur-Priest. He might take that if I adapt it a little.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and putting so much effort into a game you're not even playing in. I really do appreciate it, even the criticism.

for a fluff limitation, have there be as much discrimination against whatever dead god he worships as there is against divine spellstealers.

Also a good option, though I kinda like the idea of, for example, a saint of gruumsh being required to burn one elven holy site or destroy one powerful elven magic item/relic each year, or losing all his superpowers for being a crappy chosen one.

[Anklebite]

Thank you Solo and Weenog for your assistance. I'm going to review what you've sent me and think about it further. I don't know how I feel about accelerated spellcasting prestige classes without fluff and or mechanical limitations. I'll read through the adaption on page 70 and the stuff Weenog brought up and get back to Brad with a ruling on Ur-Priest. He might take that if I adapt it a little.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and putting so much effort into a game you're not even playing in. I really do appreciate it, even the criticism.

for a fluff limitation, have there be as much discrimination against whatever dead god he worships as there is against divine spellstealers.

Also a good option, though I kinda like the idea of, for example, a saint of gruumsh being required to burn one elven holy site or destroy one powerful elven magic item/relic each year, or losing all his superpowers for being a crappy chosen one.

don't forget about putting out one eye.

[weenog]

don't forget about putting out one eye.

  I actually had a half-orc cleric of St. Cuthbert (converted from Gruumsh) that had done this, once.  We treated it as having the Shaky flaw with no bonus feat to represent the lack of depth perception from only having one eye.

[PhaedrusXY]

Thank you Solo and Weenog for your assistance. I'm going to review what you've sent me and think about it further. I don't know how I feel about accelerated spellcasting prestige classes without fluff and or mechanical limitations. I'll read through the adaption on page 70 and the stuff Weenog brought up and get back to Brad with a ruling on Ur-Priest. He might take that if I adapt it a little.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and putting so much effort into a game you're not even playing in. I really do appreciate it, even the criticism.

That's about the most graceful and mature post I've ever seen on a message board. 

[Cuindless]

Thank you, Phaedrus.

I've read through the adaption section now. Worshipping a dead deity is an interesting take on the Ur-Priest. We're playing in FR, so there are plenty of dead deities to go around. I might suggest worshipping a dead deity of wild beasts that was destroyed by Malar. That way, stealing the divine power of Malar would be more a case of delivering his deity's comuppance rather than an evil and dishonorable act of theft. Besides, a Fochlucan Lyrist is supposed to be part rogue (at least, according to the fluff), so the act sneaking into Malar's back yard and stealing his divine power shouldn't be that radically abhorrent to his character, I would think. I'll discuss it more with him. Hopefully he'll join these boards at some point and get some ideas. I like the Ur-Priest/SublimeChord/FochlucanLyrist build I've seen here in the Min/Max forums.

[McPoyo]

Don't forget, in Lost Empires of Faerun, there is a feat for worshipping a dead god that gives some minor abilities. Might be worth looking into.

[weenog]

Don't forget, in Lost Empires of Faerun, there is a feat for worshipping a dead god that gives some minor abilities. Might be worth looking into.

Servant of the Fallen requires an actual cleric level (though it's well within a DM's right to modify or waive that).  I'd consider replacing the Spell Focus (evil) requisite of UP with that, for a game situation where ur-priest is more about following dead deities than blasphemous theft of power.

[Cuindless]

Maybe it's laziness, maybe it's being conservative, but I'm always so hesitant to homebrew stuff. I like RAW so much because it makes everything universal. Now we're talking about making a mechanical change (in this case a feat prerequisite) based on a fluff change. The thing is, I've homebrewed stuff before. I'm just hesitant to do it. Replacing one feat prerequisite with another that is mechanically similar, such as a different spell focus, shouldn't be a problem. I'll have to check out Servant of the Fallen, though, to see what benefit it grants. I'm at work without my books at the moment, sadly.

[weenog]

Servant of the Fallen
You keep alive the worship of a deity who has died or vanished. Your faith in this fallen deity allows you to wield divine magic in his or her name.
Prerequisites: Cleric level 1st, dead or forgotten god (for example, Amaunator, Bhaal, Moander, or Myrkhul) as patron deity.
Benefit: You can name a dead god as your patron deity and still receive your cleric spells normally. In addition, you can call upon the universal remnant of your deity's power once per day to gain a +1 luck bonus on any single die roll.   You can also be raised or resurrected normally.
Normal: Dead or fallen deities cannot grant cleric spells, so clerics who choose such patrons do not normally receive spells. Characters who do not worship active gods in Faerûn suffer the fate of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane after death.
Special: You can take this feat only once. Choosing this feat changes your patron from your previous deity to the dead or forgotten deity of your choice, and you take no penalties for making this change. If you later choose a different patron deity, you lose the benefit of this feat, but your new patron may grant you spells just as he or she would for any other cleric.
See Ancient Deities, page 41, for a list of notable dead gods, their alignments, and their domains.

Changing the cleric references to general divine spellcasting class references, and maybe adding 4 ranks of Knowlege (Religion) to the prerequisites, would open up your options some while giving more or less the same feel, I think.

[McPoyo]

Not to mention, it's more in keeping, flavor-wise and mechanics-wise both, than Spell Focus.

[Cuindless]

Wow. Thank you, Weenog. With this in mind, I think I'll make the following changes:

In "Servant of the Fallen" replace "Cleric level 1st" with "Any divine spellcaster level 1st". I'm not going to add a Knowledge (Religion) prerequisite because the benefits of the feat aren't that great, comparatively.

Create a prestige class called "Disciple of the Fallen" which is mechanically identical to Ur-Priest excepting that the feat prerequisite "Spell Focus (Evil)" is replaced with the feat prerequisite "Servant of the Fallen". The fluff differences between Ur-Priest and Disciple of the Fallen will be that while an Ur-Priest steals magical energy from the gods indiscriminately, a Disciple of the Fallen siphons magical energy from a specific divine target and funnels it to his fallen deity in an attempt to revive it. This earns the eternal and irreconcilable enmity of the deity in question and all it's followers.

What do you guys think? Is this workable and balanced from a gameplay perspective?

[weenog]

It's not bad.  You might consider also losing the Alignment: Any evil requirement from Ur-Priest for Disciple of the Fallen.  Replacing Steal Spell-Like Ability with something else is also something to consider, but it sounds like you still want the class to be a power thief (just a more discriminating one), so maybe that can stay the way it is.