Help with optimizing build: Pal2,Soc6,EK2

[Sjappo]

Hi all,

I've recently started playing DnD 3.5 after a no-game-time of 2 years. We started at lvl 9 (now lvl 10). When I made my char I only used the PHB and DMG. I choose to play a Human Paladin-Sorcerer because I like the character concept. I went with Eldritch Knight at lvl 9 for the extra BAB an HP.

So far, so good. Unfortunately the character is pretty underwhelming. This is partly because the rest of the party consist of a Cleric 10 and a Druid 10. The Monk7-Rogue3 has the same problem as I have, no, or nearly no, impact whatsoever.

I could desperately use some tips. I've been reading this forum for a while now and the information presented is really overwhelming. So, some to-the-point advise is highly appreciated.

Anywayz, this is what I did:

Stats:
STR 14, DEX 16, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 20
HP: 47
AC: 21
ASF: 10%
BAB: +7/+2

Feats:
Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Still Spell, Extra Class Skill (Intimidate)

Items:
Cloak of CHA +4
Helmet which gives me 20 spell-levels of extra spells known. You can load and unload spells for a cost.
Silver Greatsword. Morphing, Holy Surge (Works as Holy but with charges depending on CHA) an Lesser Chrystal of Lifedrinking
Rod of Empower Lesser
Mithral Shirt +2, Ring of Silence, Ring op Deflection +2, Periapth of Wound Closure, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll
Some kind of Large Sentient Bastard Sword (out of "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits"). Dunno what is does yet. Don't tell me please.
Various scrolls, oils, potions, wands and staves

Spells:
0: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, mage Hand, Open/Close, Read Magic
1: Identify, Obscuring Mist, Lesser Orb of Acid, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2: Acid Arrow, Darkvision, Invisibility, Scorching Ray, See Invis, Web
3: Dispel Magic, Fireballs, Fly, Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues

Skills:
Bluff 12, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 18, Intimidate 17, Sense Motive 9, Spellcraft 9
And some skills with low checks and low investments

The Good:
I'm the party face. With a CHA of 24, Tongues and good skills this works like a charm
Saves are good thanx to the 2 lvl Pal

The Bad:
I'm not that good in combat due to my low HP, Low AC and lowish BAB.
I'm not that good in magic either. Casterlevel is only 7, which has its effect on spelldamage and (lack of) SR penetration. My highest spell is lvl 3, compared to lvl 5 druid and cleric monsterspells. I burn through my lvl 3 and lvl 2 spellslots like crazy due to my use of Still Spel to get past the ASF or plain losing the spell due to a bad roll.

The Ugly Future:
My DM allows retraining of feats, but only in the same domain (so combat to combat). Obviously I want to retrain to Exotic Weapon - Bastard Sword. I will also dump Still Spell and Combat Casting in favor of Practiced Spellcaster and Empower Spell. Or maybe Spell Penetration.
If I want to be able to use the Bastard Sword with any kind of skill I'll have to get Strongarm Bracers. Which are cheap and I don't have any decent bracers yet. Good?
I have to get my AC up and my ACF down. I'm thinking about getting Midnight (BoED, -10% ASF) done on the Mithral Shirt. And maybe buying something with Natural Armor. Any tips here? (Animated) Shields maybe?
I'm also thinking about going the Alter Self / Polymorph route. Which makes NA available as well. It's to bad that Polymorph doesn't change HP, although I'm inclined to argue otherwise.

So, waddaya think?

[ninjarabbit]

Take a level of spellsword (Complete Warrior) and 5 levels of abjurant champion (Complete Mage) for +1 BAB and CL each level as well as some abilities that work well with your gish.

Retrain weapon focus for improved trip and start using a trip weapon, preferably a guisarme since it has reach. Enlarge person and polymorph help with tripping. Retraining still spell for practiced spellcaster is a good idea.

Your spell selection kinda stinks to be frank. You need a few more buffs like haste and you don't need direct damage spells since you should be doing damage with your sword and not your spells otherwise you're just a gimped spellcaster and not a warrior.

[cru]

Don't despair. Your character is kinda at the bottom of its power (because of the sacrificed caster levels) but it's going to be better.

Unfortunately, you've made some pretty bad choices when creating your character, such as 10 con. Yeah. Not good. If you still can make changes to your stats, put 10 in wis and at least 14 in con.

Lose Combat Casting. I am not sold on Combat Expertise either. Still spell and arcane spell failure is probably not the way to go. Sell the armor, use greater mage armor from spell compendium. Don't take Spell Penetration or Empower Spell. Use metamagic rods. But your role probably should not be blasting.

Use spells that ignore SR. Probably buffs. Retrain fireball to haste. Retrain darkvision to false life. Have the monk hold the torch (he can still attack with knees, elbows, whatever).

If you can use polymorph, well, another reason not to invest into armor.

Also, bastard sword is not an exotic weapon if you wield it in two hands. And you should wield it in two hands. Strongarm bracers is a good choice.

[Sjappo]

Cru and NinjaRabbit, thanx. This is going somewhere.

Retraining some spells should be easy. Some are stored in my helmet and can be changed as soon as I can find a mage. So, false life and haste are in, Darkvision is out. I'll dump the 4th level spell that's in there and get Alter Self as well. Bear's Endurance a good idea? I'll try to get greater mage armor as well. We'll be passing through Sigil pretty soon so buying and selling equipment isn't a problem. I'll get the Strongarm Bracers as well.

Tripping isn't really my thing. So I'm skipping that.

I'll get an other light-source or use dancing lights. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of FireBall so I'm unwilling to dump this just yet. At the moment I function as a gimped spellcaster and last resort backup fighter.

Changing stats is out I'm afraid. I've been playing this char for almost 6 months now, so ...

An other snag is this. My DM uses the XP penalty rule for multiclass characters. This means I'm fine till Paladin 2, Eldritch Knight 2, Sorcerer 6, Abjurant Champion 2, Spellsword 1. After that I'm gonna pay. Still, that gives me 3 more levels. So I'm good for the next year or so
Snag 3 is a houserule. My DM enforces some sort of ceremony / learning phase / whatever before entering a PrC. So I'm betting this pick-and-choosing of PrC levels will become a problem. I'll have to see how this goes.

I'll have to discuss the working of spells like Polymorph and Alter Self with my DM. If I can get the CON HP bonus approved and if I can get my ring of deflection to resize with Polymorph than all my troubles are gone with my next level.

Cheers.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Hi,

XP penalties don't apply to prestige classes. So as long as Pal 2/Sor 6 are your only base classes, you're fine.

EDIT: I just realised this was my 100th post! Yay! I'll add to my advice for you more when I have time, busy with assignments at the moment.

[Solo]

There's a guide to selecting sorcerer spells that goes into detail for the core only ones somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.

[Sjappo]

There's a guide to selecting sorcerer spells that goes into detail for the core only ones somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.

Thanx, but you don't have to. We are not limited to core, only to published WotC books. It's just that I couldn't be bothered to read up on this stuff when I made my char and just used PHB and DMG. Boy an I sorry now

I fond this thread from you're hand which has some very good info. But it is not really catered to a Gish. (Now I know what my char is I'll use it. It's better then Goody-Two-shoes my mates use). The threads about Alter Self and Polymorph are useful as well.

Cheers.

[Anklebite]

There's a guide to selecting sorcerer spells that goes into detail for the core only ones somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.

 


oh, that solo. 

[ninjarabbit]

Since we're shamelessly plugging our handbooks

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7229.0

One of the example characters is a soradin, though you might want to change things a bit since you're the only arcanist in the party.


Also PrCs don't count towards exp point penalties for multiclass characters.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm

[skydragonknight]

A couple routes you can go with a Sorc-based Gish. Thunderlance (4th level) from Spell Compendium is nice if you go for the reach-tripper and lets you use your Cha. With your Dex, Combat Reflexes would be great: chill behind the cleric and druid and AoO anything that moves. It counts as a lance, so for extra fun hop on a horse and charge. Maybe even get a saddle for the druid and ride on their back.

Another possibility is to go with a spell-storing weapon, which basically gives you an extra action each combat. Whirling Blade (Spell Compendium) helps with the reach issues sometimes and let's you use your Cha for when you can't full attack. When you can full attack, Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) while Power Attacking is really good.

[Endarire]

Hood does gish.  See the Trancer and Twilight Lancer builds for inspiration.

[Prime32]

See if you can retcon those paladin levels as prestige paladin levels and take the Southern Magician feat (trade out Weapon Focus if possible - it and Combat Casting are worthless except as prereqs). If you can pull this off you get some paladin class features earlier, one of your paladin levels advances your sorcerer spellcasting and you add all the spells on the paladin spell list to your sorcerer spells known. Oh, and you now qualify for this feat.

Outside of that, if you want a higher CL there's the Practiced Spellcaster feat, which increases your CL by up to four (but no higher your character level). It won't get you more spells, but it will make the ones you have more powerful.

If you don't use your familiar, there are things you can trade it in for.

As for why you shouldn't take EWP (bastard sword), Power Attack gives you less bonus damage if you don't wield your weapon with both hands, and the ability to use a shield doesn't usually make up for it (don't even try to dual-wield without significant feat investment).

[Nemain]

Umm, it would take either a Cleric dip or waiting a very long time to get into Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead in order to get into Prestige Paladin...

[Solo]

There's a guide to selecting sorcerer spells that goes into detail for the core only ones somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.

Thanx, but you don't have to. We are not limited to core, only to published WotC books. It's just that I couldn't be bothered to read up on this stuff when I made my char and just used PHB and DMG. Boy an I sorry now

I fond this thread from you're hand which has some very good info. But it is not really catered to a Gish. (Now I know what my char is I'll use it. It's better then Goody-Two-shoes my mates use). The threads about Alter Self and Polymorph are useful as well.

Cheers.

Look closely, you'll notice the non-core spell section has a few gish spells.

[Anklebite]

There's a guide to selecting sorcerer spells that goes into detail for the core only ones somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.

Thanx, but you don't have to. We are not limited to core, only to published WotC books. It's just that I couldn't be bothered to read up on this stuff when I made my char and just used PHB and DMG. Boy an I sorry now

I fond this thread from you're hand which has some very good info. But it is not really catered to a Gish. (Now I know what my char is I'll use it. It's better then Goody-Two-shoes my mates use). The threads about Alter Self and Polymorph are useful as well.

Cheers.

Look closely, you'll notice the non-core spell section has a few gish spells.

still worth it to look through. core has the most powerful spells, really; and if nothing else, solo's guide is good for a few laughs. 

[Sjappo]

Look closely, you'll notice the non-core spell section has a few gish spells.

still worth it to look through. core has the most powerful spells, really; and if nothing else, solo's guide is good for a few laughs. 

I did and I did. Solo seems to be pointing out that fire type spells aren't al that great. Is Energy Substitution (cold) or (acid) any good. There aren't many creatures with cold or acid immunity out there. I'll look through it again though.

There is so much info to go through. References to spells and PrC I don't know. Hunting through book and tintin-net to find them. Then trying to figure out what that obscure combo is doing in that build. So much to do, so little time.

Thanx all for the great info though.

[Nemain]

Energy Substitution isn't really an issue because you shouldn't be blasting. That's a waste of your spellslots. What you're looking for is buffs, debuffs and crowd control.

[Frost Wolf]

Get into Abjurant Champion as soon as you can, and grab arcane strike. A feat in Complete Adventurer (I think) that will help you both hit and deal damage. Just be careful with it.

Grab a summon spell that has something you can talk to, to summon a flank buddy for you and the Monk/thief dude, or better yet, work as a team with him yourself. You trip so he can hit, he flanks so you can hit, etc.

[Sjappo]

Energy Substitution isn't really an issue because you shouldn't be blasting. That's a waste of your spellslots. What you're looking for is buffs, debuffs and crowd control.

OK, OK, I get it

A total rebuild of my char is out by the way. So the prestige paladin route is out. All I can do now is change some spells and be ready to pick the good stuff (spells, skills, feats, class) next level. Retraining will have to wait till my char has some downtime I'm afraid.

So, the plan now is to get some spells. Not sure which though. The wraithstrike - powerattack route appeals to me. It combines nicely with smite. Haste seems like a must have. I'll take Alter Self I think to get access to some movement options and much needed AC through natural armor.

Equipment wise I'll go for the strongarm bracers and getting armor without ACF. Probably through the mitral/blended quarz/midnight route. Mage armor and shield and such are very nice, but I don't think I can afford to be buffing myself the first 5 rounds of combat. I'll need the Abjurant Champion levels to pull that off. Which will be next but that will take a while.

Tripping may be effective but isn't really my thing. It doesn't really fit the character as well. I don't see a Paladin tripping enemies so he and the monk can kick them while they're down.

I don't really get the Arcane Strike thing. Sacrificing a lvl 3 spell for +3 to hit and 3d4 damage seems a bit lackluster <rereading> Ah, +3 and +3d4 per attack. Combined with haste that's 3 attacks. Combined with wraithstrike, power attack and smite that's three hits and lots of pain. Me like  Arcane strike is in.

Cheers

[Anklebite]

hate to burst your bubble about cold damage, but most undead are immune.