Ask a Simple Question: Viking Berserker Edition

[NiteCyper]

Q.65. Does the Unseelie Fey template's Summer Caress (Su) thwart Color Spray, i.e. mind-affecting effects?
Mind-affecting descriptor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor
Unseelie Fey: http://img532.imageshack.us/g/dragoncompendium222unse.png/

A 65

Why should it? It's not affected by a regular Magic Circle/Protection, so it's not affected by Summer Caress. The Magic Circle and Protection lines do nothing to protect you from Mind-Affecting spells, they only thwart possession, which Color Spray didn't do last time I checked.

"...the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

I call mind-affecting "exercising mental control over the creature", i.e. requiring a Will save. Possession is included.

[Agita]

Q.65. Does the Unseelie Fey template's Summer Caress (Su) thwart Color Spray, i.e. mind-affecting effects?
Mind-affecting descriptor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor
Unseelie Fey: http://img532.imageshack.us/g/dragoncompendium222unse.png/

A 65

Why should it? It's not affected by a regular Magic Circle/Protection, so it's not affected by Summer Caress. The Magic Circle and Protection lines do nothing to protect you from Mind-Affecting spells, they only thwart possession, which Color Spray didn't do last time I checked.

"...the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

I call mind-affecting "exercising mental control over the creature", i.e. requiring a Will save. Possession is included.

I do not. Color Spray doesn't exert any control over anything any more than a punch in the face exerts control over anything; it just knocks people out.
On the RAI side, by your logic Protection from Evil protects from all mind-affecting effects. Effectively Mind Blank as a first level spell? Yeah, no.
EDIT: Also, illusions? Totally exercising mental control over me, since they're making me believe something that's not there is there, or vice versa. Bam, better True Seeing too, because you're such a good customer. All for the low, low price of a first-level spell.

[bearsarebrown]

I do not. Color Spray doesn't exert any control over anything any more than a punch in the face exerts control over anything; it just knocks people out.

Had the same conversation with him. Made the same argument.

But the language is interesting.

to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Implies that there are things other then enchantment affects (and possesions) that it blocks against.

[kevin_video]

Bumping

Q 66

A64: No it is not, that was a WotC over sight in the Monstrous progressions. The "-1 AC & Attack" is a penalty all Large creatures get, and is cumlative with the -1 from having a lower DEX.

Okay so at lvl 5 in Savage Species when you go up in Ogre does it great down like this...?

Lvl 5 +1d8 +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX, Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX*, +4 CON, -1 attack, -1 AC*, +2 nat armor)

*AC and DEX loss are the same minus

?

[NiteCyper]

_{Please excuse the interruption. Pity my lack of self-control.}

Q.65. Does the Unseelie Fey template's Summer Caress (Su) thwart Color Spray, i.e. mind-affecting effects?
Mind-affecting descriptor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor
Unseelie Fey: http://img532.imageshack.us/g/dragoncompendium222unse.png/

A 65

Why should it? It's not affected by a regular Magic Circle/Protection, so it's not affected by Summer Caress. The Magic Circle and Protection lines do nothing to protect you from Mind-Affecting spells, they only thwart possession, which Color Spray didn't do last time I checked.

"...the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

I call mind-affecting "exercising mental control over the creature", i.e. requiring a Will save. Possession is included.

I do not. Color Spray doesn't exert any control over anything any more than a punch in the face exerts control over anything; it just knocks people out.
On the RAI side, by your logic Protection from Evil protects from all mind-affecting effects. Effectively Mind Blank as a first level spell? Yeah, no.
EDIT: Also, illusions? Totally exercising mental control over me, since they're making me believe something that's not there is there, or vice versa. Bam, better True Seeing too, because you're such a good customer. All for the low, low price of a first-level spell.

I like this quote best:
"daggaz
06-07-2009, 11:26 PM
"Hey! Undead have immunity to mind-affecting effects, right? Isn't its sensory perception of me affecting its mind? It's immune to that right? So it can't see me?"

Yeah, I like this obvious logic to show the brokenness of the argument. Thanks."

re: reply below: that's the joke.

[Agita]

Heck, if you're willing to get really silly (even sillier than saying Protection from X blocks all mind-affecting effects), a stinking normal attack like beating you with a stick can be argued to exercise control over your mind to a degree, since being attacked (and the resulting perception of danger) releases certain hormones in your brain, most notably adrenaline.

But the language is interesting.

to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Implies that there are things other then enchantment affects (and possesions) that it blocks against.

I'm pretty sure there are, actually. There's one spell in Libris Mortis that uses a previously implanted tumor to control the target similar to Dominate Person. It's neither an Enchantment (it's Necromancy) nor possession, but it would still be blocked.

So basically, Protection is the new Iron Heart Surge/Freedom of Movement?

[Vinom]

Heck, if you're willing to get really silly (even sillier than saying Protection from X blocks all mind-affecting effects), a stinking normal attack like beating you with a stick can be argued to exercise control over your mind to a degree, since being attacked (and the resulting perception of danger) releases certain hormones in your brain, most notably adrenaline.

Or healling is mind effecting because it effects how much pain the mind is feeling.

[Fluffles]

Bumping

Q 66

A64: No it is not, that was a WotC over sight in the Monstrous progressions. The "-1 AC & Attack" is a penalty all Large creatures get, and is cumlative with the -1 from having a lower DEX.

Okay so at lvl 5 in Savage Species when you go up in Ogre does it great down like this...?

Lvl 5 +1d8 +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX, Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX*, +4 CON, -1 attack, -1 AC*, +2 nat armor)

*AC and DEX loss are the same minus

?

No, you don't get the normal Size increasing bonus that is listed in the DMG. Sadly.

[kevin_video]

No, you don't get the normal Size increasing bonus that is listed in the DMG. Sadly.

So what happens? They just become large size and that's it? How exactly do you work this?

[Agita]

Heck, if you're willing to get really silly (even sillier than saying Protection from X blocks all mind-affecting effects), a stinking normal attack like beating you with a stick can be argued to exercise control over your mind to a degree, since being attacked (and the resulting perception of danger) releases certain hormones in your brain, most notably adrenaline.

Or healling is mind effecting because it effects how much pain the mind is feeling.

In fact, if you believe in the Theory of Causal Determinism, which essentially states that everything influences everything else, nothing ever can happen once Protection from X using this interpretation is cast because everything that happens would (eventually) influence the target's mind in one way or another, so the world pretty much just stops or ceases to exist. Good job breaking it.
I now kinda want to include a demiplane where this happened in a campaign setting, just for fun.

[snakeman830]

Bumping

Q 66

A64: No it is not, that was a WotC over sight in the Monstrous progressions. The "-1 AC & Attack" is a penalty all Large creatures get, and is cumlative with the -1 from having a lower DEX.

Okay so at lvl 5 in Savage Species when you go up in Ogre does it great down like this...?

Lvl 5 +1d8 +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX, Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX*, +4 CON, -1 attack, -1 AC*, +2 nat armor)

*AC and DEX loss are the same minus

All Large creatures have a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC.  This is regardless of Race.  Any Dex penalty is applied seperately

[kevin_video]

Bumping

Q 66

A64: No it is not, that was a WotC over sight in the Monstrous progressions. The "-1 AC & Attack" is a penalty all Large creatures get, and is cumlative with the -1 from having a lower DEX.

Okay so at lvl 5 in Savage Species when you go up in Ogre does it great down like this...?

Lvl 5 +1d8 +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX, Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX*, +4 CON, -1 attack, -1 AC*, +2 nat armor)

*AC and DEX loss are the same minus

All Large creatures have a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC.  This is regardless of Race.  Any Dex penalty is applied seperately

So they get +1d8 HD +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX*, Large size (-1 attack, -1 AC*)?

So no additional STR, CON, and natural armor, or more lower DEX? That seems a little cheap.

[snakeman830]

Bumping

Q 66

A64: No it is not, that was a WotC over sight in the Monstrous progressions. The "-1 AC & Attack" is a penalty all Large creatures get, and is cumlative with the -1 from having a lower DEX.

Okay so at lvl 5 in Savage Species when you go up in Ogre does it great down like this...?

Lvl 5 +1d8 +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX, Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX*, +4 CON, -1 attack, -1 AC*, +2 nat armor)

*AC and DEX loss are the same minus

All Large creatures have a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC.  This is regardless of Race.  Any Dex penalty is applied seperately

So they get +1d8 HD +1 BAB +1 Fort 2+INT skills +1 CR Reach 10 ft, +2 STR, -2 DEX*, Large size (-1 attack, -1 AC*)?

So no additional STR, CON, and natural armor, or more lower DEX? That seems a little cheap.

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

[kevin_video]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

[Vinom]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

Yes

[snakeman830]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

The -1 Attack/AC is inherent in Large size as are the +4 bonus on Grapple checks and the -4 penalty on Hide checks.  Ability scores are completely seperate from this.  So yes, it would be -2 AC total.

[LunaticsLament]

Are there ways to increase the number of bardic music attempts a character has without taking more levels of bard or a bardic PrC?

[kevin_video]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

The -1 Attack/AC is inherent in Large size as are the +4 bonus on Grapple checks and the -4 penalty on Hide checks.  Ability scores are completely seperate from this.  So yes, it would be -2 AC total.

So basically that level reads as if the ogre got a permanent Enlarge Person spell placed on them.

[Fluffles]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

The -1 Attack/AC is inherent in Large size as are the +4 bonus on Grapple checks and the -4 penalty on Hide checks.  Ability scores are completely seperate from this.  So yes, it would be -2 AC total.

So basically that level reads as if the ogre got a permanent Enlarge Person spell placed on them.

Correct!

[kevin_video]

I believe they do get the additional changes from going up in size, since the Ogre race gets +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.  Make of that what you will.  I was simply pointing out your error by assuming the -1 AC was from the Dex penalty.  It isn't.

How am I wrong? The Ogre gets those stats, and they are Large size. Large size gives you +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -1 attack, and -1 AC. So they get -1 AC AND -2 DEX making it -2 AC?

The -1 Attack/AC is inherent in Large size as are the +4 bonus on Grapple checks and the -4 penalty on Hide checks.  Ability scores are completely seperate from this.  So yes, it would be -2 AC total.

So basically that level reads as if the ogre got a permanent Enlarge Person spell placed on them.

Correct!

Okay. Then that I can handle.

67 I don't remember seeing it, but does Wildshape give the Druid the shapechanger subtype for the purpose of getting around Baleful Polymorph?