Expanded Gestalt

[wotmaniac]

Have you ever had an idea that seemed great .... until you said it out loud?
Or that looked really good on paper, but turned out to be really bad in practice?
It is with this idea in mind that I have created this post -- to see if what I have planned is really a good idea (or if I am just asking for problems).
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you ....
Expanded Gestalt
Okay, I've already got some practical experience with gestalt, and with mixed parties (some PCs gestalt, some not).  With some proper limitations in place, mixed groups can work fine -- the fix: gestalt PCs earn 1/2 xp (which keeps them about 2 levels below standard PCs).
This got me thinking -- why not have "gestalts" with additional "paths" (the inspiration coming from the old 2e multiclass).
Let's call regular gestalt "G2" -- simultaneously advancing 2 classes, taking the best of each. (earning 1/2 xp; thus, staying about 2 levels behind).
"G3" would advance 3 classes simultaneously, taking the best of each -- earning 1/3 xp, thus staying about 3 levels behind (trust me -- I've already done all the math)
"G4" would advance 4 classes simultaneously -- earning 1/4 xp, thus staying about 4 levels behind (again, I've done all the appropriate calculations)
"G5" -- 5 classes, 1/5 xp (which will indeed leave them about 5 levels behind)
Anything past G5, the xp calculations start to fall apart, and therefore should not be attempted.

I've done some quick thinking on this, and have decided that anything past G3 is ... "sub-optimal", at best.  "So why even bother" you say?  Well, why does anybody go Fighter20? or take feats such as mobility or SF (conj) as anything but prerequisites?  It's about player choice, and the fact that my first run with this will largely be to serve as play-testing.

Now, I fully understand the potential power level will be quite high -- and that's the point.  I'm in the midst of planning a potential Planescape campaign (which will be at least a year from now -- will start when we conclude the current game), and I wanna just go buck-wild with it.
I'm even playing around with the idea of ruling that any gestalts much have one "side" of their build be racial HD (i.e., a monster race), just to really accentuate the setting.
I've already decided that they will start at around level 10 (give or take a few), and just see where things go from there.

So, is there anything that I may be missing?  Is this more exploitable than I'm counting on?  Or is it much less exploitable than I'm hoping?

Discuss.

[ksbsnowowl]

Probably not my thing as far as playing goes, but I can offer some critiques  

How would you handle Level Adjustment?  I've always thought that it all going on one side is too powerful, but double-charging for it on both sides of a level (ie - a LA 2 creature not getting any class levels until 3rd level) was way too punishing.

The happy medium I found with normal gestalt was to spread the LA across both sides, but not double charge for it.  So a drow (LA +2) could start as a second level character (Drow LA 1/Wizard 1//LA 2/Rogue 1, for example).  Odd-level LA's gets a bit of a boost, in that the one odd level only pays on one side (Goliath LA 1//Barbarian 1 would be a good first level character).  For another example, a Nymph could start play as a 9th level character (Nymph LA 1-4/Rogue 5//LA 5-7/Fey 6).

Anyway, just something you'll need to figure out how to deal with, especially if you plan to make all the PC's have racial HD.

[Prak, the Mad]

Well, keep in mind, G3 allows stuff like Wiz/Clr/Brb, which would have:

• d12 HD
• Full BAB
• Good Fort and Will
• 4+Int Skills
• fast spell progression of two classes, both of which are said to be some of the more egregious lists

and really, the only trade off, as far as compared to the other characters would be, is that they have poor ref, and need to worry about three ability scores pretty equally.

Or you could go Wiz/Clr/Ranger and have 2 more skill points per level, all good saves, and only have to concede two HD sizes.

If you were to actually run G5, I'd probably go something like Wiz/Clr/Rog/Sor/Dru and have the major casting lists and progressions, all good saves, 3/4 BAB, a d8 hd, 8 skill points a level, pretty much I'd have the best of everything except HD, and never reasonably run out of spells. I'd also have two familiars (scouts), an animal companion, and an army of the undead.

So, yeah, I'd go down a lot more easily against "ECL appropriate challenges" once they got to me, but there's a hell of a lot of power between them and me, so...

not that I'm against the idea, I like it, though book keeping, at least, becomes a nightmare, and challenges can get hard to figure.

as for LAs, I've always just applied them to one side only.

[wotmaniac]

Well, I ran a "mixed" game a little while ago (2 gestalt PCs, 2 standard PCs), and one of the gestalts was a Pixie Sorcerer -- I had the racial LA to only apply to one side (the side with the racial HD, of course) -- It seemed to work out just fine.

Yes, bookkeeping could probably get to be a bit of a chore, but oh well -- I'm up for it; and if the player is up for it, then that's on them.

as for having multiple familiars -- I've ruled that this falls in to the "class feature overlap" category (which means that they'd only get 1).  Of course, this can quickly get remedied by taking Psion (instead of sorc) and getting a psycrystal.

Also, as far as this particular game goes, all gestalts will have racial HD on one side -- with starting at 10th level, as planars in Sigil, and planning on just going bat-shit crazy, I figured that this could be something really fun to play around with.

See, my last few campaigns have been pretty slow and plodding, with a very heavy feel to them ; I'm wanting to go a lot lighter with this one -- just start kicking shit over and damn the consequences. 

[kurashu]

Archivist/Warblade/Duskblade/Factotum

[JaronK]

Archivist/Warblade/Duskblade/Factotum

Which is much weaker than a straight Archivist, since it would be about 4 levels behind.  That's a lot of lost spell levels.

JaronK

[kurashu]

True. But I think it makes up for it by being able to do anything.

[Prak, the Mad]

it may be able to do anything, but it seems that it does it all extremely shittily...

[Surreal]

I've seen a mixed setting which pretty much had "G2" running exactly as you described (technically they got the same xp, but it had to be spent on both sides; same diff). In the low-mid level range things seemed to work well.

In my own use, I find shoving racial HD and LA to one side of the gestalt works fine as long as the player isn't abusing some sort of ridiculous template stacking.

[wotmaniac]

In my own use, I find shoving racial HD and LA to one side of the gestalt works fine as long as the player isn't abusing some sort of ridiculous template stacking.

which isn't much of an issue with this particular group. 
 

[Flay Crimsonwind]

it may be able to do anything, but it seems that it does it all extremely shittily...

Yeah, like an iphone...

[wotmaniac]

So, I've been thinking ....

UA recommends that gestalt character not advance more than one PrC at any given level, and then goes on to explain why.
However, with all the silliness that can be done with the expanded concept, coupled with the XP limitation, I'm not entirely sure I see a problem.  I mean, c'mon -- if you're advancing 4-5 classes at a time, is an extra PrC really gonna make a difference?  On the other hand, I guess I can see some potential for some unnecessary abuse, so here's some alternatives that I started tossing around in my head .....

.... factor the PrC Tier System in to the mix.  Give every character a tier adjustment "cap" -- say, a +2.
For example, if you had a standard gestalt PC (i.e., "G2"), they could now advance 2 PrCs at a time, provided that the net tier adjustment did not exceed a +2 (which could be applicable of regular gestalt games, as well).
Same goes for a "G5" -- they could advance in up to 5 PrC at any given level, provided that the total net tier adjustment still did not exceed a +2.

What do you guys think?   

[RobbyPants]

As long as each one applies separately, it probably wouldn't matter too much.  That's a lot of prereqs to meet anyway, even with a significant amount of overlapping.

[wotmaniac]

Yeah, I think so (if I understand what you're saying, that is) ....

To further explicate:
a "+2 tiers" PrC + a "+1 tier" + a "-2 tiers" = net +1 tier for a "G3".

I figured that any sort of weird synergy would be compensated by the mountains of prereqs, MAD, and being lower level than other characters.


Now, for the campaign that I'm planning on using this in (still some time away), the PCs will be starting at base level 15 (yeah, I upped it a bit), adjusted based on gestalt options -- by that level, most builds have reached full maturity (at least for all practical purposes), so most problems should be immediately and readily apparent.
So, basically, can anyone think of any combos that could be inherently game-breaking with the limits that I have just described (given the explanation that UA gives for not allowing more than 1 PrC at any given level)?

[Littha]

I cant see anything more powerful than Cleric//Druid/Planar Shepard coming out of it, even then you should be ok...

[wotmaniac]

I cant see anything more powerful than Cleric//Druid/Planar Shepard coming out of it, even then you should be ok...

oh really? that's it? 

[Littha]

As more than 1 gestalt hurts your caster level too much in comparison. Not that Cleric//Druid is the best gestalt (thats for another thread)

[wotmaniac]

As more than 1 gestalt hurts your caster level too much in comparison. Not that Cleric//Druid is the best gestalt (thats for another thread)

no, but still super-solid.

got a guy already talking about draegloth//fighter//rogue//psywarrior//warlock 
needless to say, I have my doubts.

[Agita]

What I don't like about Gestalt with more than two classes is that you can just take Wizard/Facotum/Warblade all the way and then you're basically a Lightning Warrior, but with a familiar.
Putting two-class gestalt PCs two levels behind non-gestalt PCs is cool with me and probably actually decently balanced (or at least, not any more unbalanced than the system already is), but anything beyond that seems excessive.

[wotmaniac]

What I don't like about Gestalt with more than two classes is that you can just take Wizard/Facotum/Warblade all the way and then you're basically a Lightning Warrior, but with a familiar.
Putting two-class gestalt PCs two levels behind non-gestalt PCs is cool with me and probably actually decently balanced (or at least, not any more unbalanced than the system already is), but anything beyond that seems excessive.

the whole point of this one is to be as excessive as possible.  I'm not even sure if we'll need to break-out the dice bags.   
(alright, that might be a little too much; but you get my point)