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Author Topic: Preliminary Persistent Chameleon Handbook (Please Suggest Improvements)  (Read 4408 times)
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2010, 12:39:19 PM »

Hopefully that's enough reserved posts.
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Anklebite
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2010, 12:39:58 PM »

I see you have some reservations about writing this.
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2010, 12:40:24 PM »

You're very funny sir  Smirk
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2010, 07:33:34 AM »

Alright, the bulk of this Handbook is done.  If anyone has any suggestions for improvements to readability, usefulness, etc. please mention it here.  I am planning on copying this handbook onto d20 Optimization and Gitp, so I'd like to get it to its best before I do that.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated!
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Arcane-surge
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2010, 08:03:27 AM »

An easy way to get divine arcane spells so you can persist those too would be the Alternative Source Spell feat, from Dragon 325, also available on Crystalkeep.

A note about the item crafting calculations: I realize that the FAQ is taken with a grain of salt around here, but it does specifically call out the alignment and skill restrictions as being problematic, and that items created with them should have a price that is "reasonable based on comparison to other magic items of similar power level and utility" (40). A Reliquary Holy Symbol that does even more than it would normally (by being slotless or in another slot) for less money would by definition never seem reasonable in comparison to the normal Reliquary Holy Symbol. There are other item cost reductions though, which could shave a lot off of the cost.
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CantripN
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2010, 08:09:43 AM »

I'll add that there's an ACF for Paladins in CC that lets a Paladin give up spellcasting for a bonus feat from a list at 4th (and later) levels. Pick Extra Turning. That puts a Paladin of Freedom 5 entry a bit higher on the entry list, and in my opinion, better than a Cleric entry, since Cleric spells are at such a low CL as to be useless later, while full BAB, more HP and Divine Grace are always nice.

I'd personally go with Silverbrow Human Cloistered Dragonblood Cleric 1 / Paladin of Freedom 4 entry:
Feats:
H - DMM: Persistent Spell
1st - Persistent Spell
1B - Knowledge Devotion
1B - Extend Spell
1B - Extra Turning
3rd - Extra Turning
4B - Extra Turning
6th - Extra Turning
7F - Extra Turning
9th - Extra Turning
12th - Extra Turning
15th - Extra Turning
18th - Extra Turning

That's (36 Extra Turning + 4 Nightstick + 2 Holy Symbol) x 2 + 6 = 90 Turn Attempts, before CHA. CHA grants double the amount!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 08:13:56 AM by CantripN » Logged

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Hijax
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2010, 08:27:50 AM »

HAAAAAANDBOOOKS SUUUUBBOAAAAAARD!!!!!!!!11111
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2010, 08:40:04 AM »

Yeah, it'll get reposted there when it's finished; I just wanna get it right first before its put there to prevent some unnecessary question and improvement posts.  Wink
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Hijax
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2010, 08:54:25 AM »

kay. handbooks on main Minmax boards is just a petpeeve of mine.

carry on.
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"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
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Anklebite
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2010, 10:57:39 AM »

kay. handbooks on main Minmax boards is just a petpeeve of mine.

carry on.
handbooks don't bother me nearly as much as the homebrew requests.  Rolls Eyes
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Hijax
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2010, 11:54:31 AM »

kay. handbooks on main Minmax boards is just a petpeeve of mine.

carry on.
handbooks don't bother me nearly as much as the homebrew requests.  Rolls Eyes
thats my second board petpeeve, yeah.
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"There's more to apocalypse than running around like a maniac you know"
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Anklebite
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I shall play you the song of my people.


« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2010, 01:26:45 PM »

kay. handbooks on main Minmax boards is just a petpeeve of mine.

carry on.
handbooks don't bother me nearly as much as the homebrew requests.  Rolls Eyes
thats my second board petpeeve, yeah.

I think the problem is that people look at the min/max board, and see a large amount of people who know the rules inside out, and think "what a wonderful untapped resource!".  the problem is, that those of us who actually want to help with homebrew are already doing so.

there is a similar situation with handbooks, but I think that those might have actual cause to be posted here for preliminary review.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2010, 03:26:14 PM »

No generic classes + other base classes

Persisted Spells for Everybody: Familiar Method I
The section for Share Spells on a familiar states:
Quote
Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.
So have an Extended Persisted Spell then Share spells it to change the range to, so a 'Shared' Extended Persistent Spell, and then Reach spell it to change the spell to have a distance of 30 ft. instead of touch, so now it's a Reach 'Shared' Extended Persistent so now you could affect your familiar up to 30 ft. away.  Then Apply Chain Spell which is now applicable since the range is greater than touch for a Chained Reach 'Shared' Extended Persistent Spell. 

So now 1 creature/CL (max 20) within 30 ft. of your familiar can gain the benefit of a Persisted Spell upon them.

...

Ring of Arcane Might - +1
Harmonic Chorus +2 morale Brd 2 SC need concentration
Hymn of Praise +2 - Brd 3 SC Good divine casters
Infernal Threnody +2 - Brd 3 SC Evil divine casters
Death Knell +1
Consumptive Field 1.5 CL
Orange Ion Stone - +1
Channel the Misthai, (roll 6 on d6) +1
Create Magic Tatoo - +1 spellcaster level
The first thing makes you a dirty, dirty boy.  Big Grin

The second I might raid for the crafting handbook. Be careful about fabricate for those discs. IIRC its very hard to create real gold.

Also did that list of buff I unloaded on your other very similar thread help? I'll be very happy if you actually went over it all.
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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Ikeren
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2010, 09:05:21 PM »

You should write something about the turn undead stacking rules.

I don't know if I wrote this or someone on the old boards (666? 333? Whatever, something like that) did.


Quote
They also stack, they don't add (a level 4 paladin turns as a L1 cleric. A level 4 cleric turns as a L4 cleric. A level 4 paladin/level 4 cleric turns as a level 5 cleric)

As for turning, I don't think so.

Example 1: Class Text for Classes that Grant their own turning pool, and don't stack.

Quote from: SRD, Classes 1, Clerics
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above).
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

Quote from: SRD, Classes 2, Paladin
Turn Undead (Su):When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Quote from: SRD, Prestige Classes, Blackguard.
Command Undead (Su): When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.

Quote from: Complete Divine, Page 71, Ur Priest
Rebuke Undead: Like an evil cleric, an ur-priest of second level or higher can rebuke undead. He uses his ur-priest level as the cleric level for determining the success and damage...(see turning in PHB pg 159)

Example Pool 2: Classes that Require and Progress Turning:

Quote from: Complete Divine, Page 76, War Priest.
Levels of War Priest stack with any of the characters cleric or paladin levels when turning or rebuking undead.

Quote from: Complete Divine, Page 53, Radiant Servant of Pelor.
A rsoP adds his radiant servant levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead.

Example Pool 3: Classes that progress turning, but also grant it if a character doesn't already have it.

Quote from: Complete Divine, Page 58, Sacred Exorcist.
Sacred exorcists can turn undead as clerics do. If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level.

Quote from: Book of Exalted Deeds, Page 52, Apostle of Peace.
An apostle of peace can turn undead as a good cleric of his apostle of peace level would. If he is also a cleric (or paladin), he also adds his apostle of peace levels to his effective cleric levels to determine his turning capacity.

Example Pool 4: Classes that progress turning, but do not grant it.

Only Deadgrim from Magic of Eberron that I could find, and I don’t have that book.
                              
That being said, there are clear text differences in all those example pools.
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Anklebite
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2010, 09:20:07 PM »

339 is the number you are looking for.
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deuxhero
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2010, 10:34:27 PM »

Pretty sure Warlock also has Spellcraft as a class skill (Which makes it Factotum, expert and that Dragon class that is a worse version of the Factotum unique in that they have all the required skills)
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Bastian
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2010, 10:55:01 PM »

Alright, the bulk of this Handbook is done.  If anyone has any suggestions for improvements to readability, usefulness, etc. please mention it here.  I am planning on copying this handbook onto d20 Optimization and Gitp, so I'd like to get it to its best before I do that.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated!
Quote
Assuming that Magic Items can be bought or crafted in the campaign, knowing the gold needed is crucial.  In Preliminary Guide to Cheap Item Crafting, there are a couple of tricks to lower the cost of magic items.  An item can be restricted to being used by those of a specific skill and restricted to being used by those of a specific class or alignment for a 10% and 30% reduction in cost respectively.  Similarly, crafting an item oneself reduces the cost by 50%.
My Preliminary Guide to Cheap Item Crafting is no longer preliminary (and no longer all mine) and is linked to in my sig.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2010, 01:47:16 AM »

The three feat combination of
God Touched+ Divine Channeler + Minor Divine Spellcaster should give you another turning pool (with only one attempt), and minor divine spellcasting.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2010, 02:54:32 AM »

Ikeren is COMPLETELY right in his post. I know of more examples if desired btw. Once you know enough of the different pools/stackage you can min/max whatever you want. For instance I have a CoDzilla build with a cohort that abuses rebuke and turn granting classes and I also have a max command build that abuses turn/rebuke stacking classes. There is much fun to be had on both sides.
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Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2010, 04:41:38 AM »

That said, if you multiclass cleric and cloistered cleric with destroy undead and rebuke vermin ACFs (which are then two version of the same class which share fewer features in common than the urban ranger or bardic sage do with their original classes), then pick up levels in knight of the raven and dread necromancer, you don't have to worry about wording. 
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