Hide in Plain Sight

[Brainpiercing]

Hmm, CAdv and the summary from SorO_Lost seem to create a viable mechanic....although I disagree with all the penalties for moving more quickly. There should be a dashing mechanic, too.

I'm still not sure about the attacking thing, but considering all those unnamed penalties might stack, anyone wanting to attack in melee needs spring-attack anyway. AND their penalties are gigantic: -20 for attacking, +possibly at least -10 for leaving cover 5ft behind and moving 5ft back into cover. If you end your round out of cover your hiding is gone.

So HiPS is really necessary. With a suitable version of HiPS you could leave cover without problems (i.e. penalties), attack with another hide-check at -20 penalty, and then stay there and remain hidden. That's actually nice. Well, it's like Improved Invisibility that needs humongous rolls to maintain, but which just MIGHT work within an AMF.

What I will do in games I'm running, currently, though, is this: [Some House-ruling inside]

- You can make hide checks using Soft Cover, such as foliage, other creatures, etc. in an equivalent manner as using Concealment to make a hide check.

- If you are using adjacent cover to hide you are always considered CLOSER to the cover than your target, hence your opponent does not gain an AC bonus to your attacks while you remain hidden.

- You usually have to move at least 5ft to make a hide check as a free action. If you are behind cover or meet another relevant condition for being able to hide (such as with HiPS) you can make a hide check at a -20 penalty while taking offensive actions (casting spells with a notable visual display excluded) and remain hidden, BUT even an opponent who doesn't spot you knows which square you are in, and can attack your square. You gain 50% concealment against that foe while you remain in the same square, until he actually spots you. You may use that concealment to make another hide check during the next action that allows this, other modifiers pending.

- If you are hidden at the start of your turn any enemy who does not know which square you are in and whom you attack from range or in melee during your turn is treated as flat-footed for one attack (per enemy), whether you had to move out of cover to reach him, or not, and whether he sees you coming or not. If you are hidden while threatening a square the target of the first AoO you make is treated as flat-footed against that attack, too.
If you are hidden and remain behind cover or meet another relevant condition for being able to hide you can attempt a hide check at a -20 penalty as part of an attack action to remain hidden after the attack, as above, but each attacked enemy will know which square you attacked from. If the enemy can't spot you, you gain 50% concealment against that foe while you remain in that square.

- After attacking you are otherwise revealed to anyone with LoS to you, anyone within LoS may make Spot checks vs. your continued hide checks. As above, this does not lift the flat-footed condition off your targets (for one attack/target) during your turn.

- CAdv rules for crossing open spaces apply. If you are within hearing distance of a foe you must make appropriate Move Silently checks to avoid alerting them, too.

- To simplify all the rolling involved, it is possible to make one Hide and one Move Silently check at the beginning of a "scene". These rolls will be used, with the appropriate modifiers, in all situation throughout the scene, UNTIL they are beaten by an opponent. It is not possible to take 10 or 20 on these rolls, nor is it possible to use single-roll abilities with limited uses/day to improve them. Enemies can make spot or listen checks where appropriate. Once the "Scene Roll" is overcome, a new roll is allowed, but not mandatory, which is then in turn used until it is overcome.

And this opens the next can of worms, because the effect of a Move Silently check, or rather, the opposed listen check, is totally undefined. What happens after you have heard someone trying to sneak by you? Noone really knows....

[carnivore]

if you hear someone sneaking past you ... you can try to Pinpoint the source with a Listen check .... if you had the Feat: Quick Reconoiter... you get to make a Spot and Listen check as a Free Action ..... then raise the alarm as a Free action ... Speak is a Free Action ... here:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/actionsInCombat.html

 

[PhaedrusXY]

if you hear someone sneaking past you ... you can try to Pinpoint the source with a Listen check .... if you had the Feat: Quick Reconoiter... you get to make a Spot and Listen check as a Free Action ..... then raise the alarm as a Free action ... Speak is a Free Action ... here:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/actionsInCombat.html

 

"Reactive" listen/spot checks are automatic, i.e. not actions. Otherwise, you'd never know you should take one... because you wouldn't know there was something there to hear/see in the first place. If you want to try and Spot/Hear something that you missed the first time, it is a move action. From the Listen skill:

Action

Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.

I don't think trying to pinpoint them takes an action, either, as it is just part of the initial listen check. So that feat looks useless (not unlike many other D&D feats written by authors who don't actually know how the rules work...).

[carnivore]

the feat Allows you to make "Active" Spot and Listen Checks.... so you just say you are always alert and checking the general vicinity(area you can see and Hear), since they are Free actions

 

[PhaedrusXY]

the feat Allows you to make "Active" Spot and Listen Checks.... so you just say you are always alert and checking the general vicinity(area you can see and Hear), since they are Free actions

 

So... what exactly is an "active" check? Is that even defined in the core rules? Or was that something invented in a supplement? Is that referring to the checks you make as a move action after failing the initial "non-action" check?

[carnivore]

an Active check is spending an Action Trying to Hear or Spot things .... normally they are Move Actions .... the Feat makes them Free Actions .......... since you did not see them before you Spotted them, and did not Hear them before you listened for them

 

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok... I still don't see what this feat is doing for me. It seems to be nothing. Here is why:

The Hide check is part of a move action. So presumably every time "the sneaker" makes a move action, they have to make another Hide and MS check.

Since "the spotter" gets to make "reactive" spot/listen checks for free as a non-action to oppose every hide/MS check the "sneaker" makes... I don't see what this feat is actually doing. The "spotter" should be getting to make Spot and Listen checks for free every round anyway, without it.

Of course, I know that many people don't actually run it that way*, but that's how it is supposed to work according to the rules. So it seems like this feat is actually something to cover up a commonly used houserule, and doesn't actually do anything much per the RAW.


*I usually just call for one Spot/Hide/etc check at a certain point at the beginning of an encounter, and use those values modified for distance until either the "spotter" sees the "sneaker", or the "sneaker" passes out of range or does whatever their objective was.

[archangel.arcanis]

The RAW advantage is when you miss it and a party member calls it out. Your Active check is a free action rather than a move.

Other than situations like that i don't see a use unless you tell your DM you want to make an active check, just in case. That just in case would normally follow a reactive spot check and were told you didn't see anything. 

[PhaedrusXY]

The RAW advantage is when you miss it and a party member calls it out. Your Active check is a free action rather than a move.

Other than situations like that i don't see a use unless you tell your DM you want to make an active check, just in case. That just in case would normally follow a reactive spot check and were told you didn't see anything.  

Ok, I get it. I guess I kind of got it before, but that didn't sound like what Carnivore was saying. So you get to re-roll your failed Spot and Listen checks for free once per round. That's the benefit. Why didn't they just freakin' say that, instead of inventing a new term (active spot/listen check... that's not in the core rules...)?  

[Bloody Initiate]

Jumping back a few posts in relevance, I have my DM mostly convinced that Move Silently checks in combat are largely unnecessary and/or irrelevant most of the time. Combat is not only loud, but taking time to look over your shoulder to investigate that rustle is more likely to get you shanked by your current attacker than it is to stop a rogue-type from shanking you.

If you REALLY don't want someone to sneak up on you than you can demand every Listen check that you have an opportunity to make, but the fact is it slows the game down and is rarely relevant. You will often fail the check due to penalties (Combat with metal weapons and armor IS loud) and even if you succeed you likely wasted the action that you would have used to save your ass, so you end up in the same hot water with a little less to show for it. Dex bonus to AC be damned, no one takes Sudden Strike anyway, they just need to flank you.

Also, more relevant to recent posts, Quick Reconnoiter + Deft Strike = <3

[archangel.arcanis]

here is the a good question for that same thought. What do you do about an enemy that isn't touching the ground? Spot talks about invisibility offering a +40 to hide but it never mentions anything about how to deal with listen under a similar circumstance. So logically the Paladin in full plate walking at you has the same chance at being stealthy as the Elocator Floating toward you that isn't moving any of his limbs. (assuming dex and ranks are even)

[Bloody Initiate]

here is the a good question for that same thought. What do you do about an enemy that isn't touching the ground? Spot talks about invisibility offering a +40 to hide but it never mentions anything about how to deal with listen under a similar circumstance. So logically the Paladin in full plate walking at you has the same chance at being stealthy as the Elocator Floating toward you that isn't moving any of his limbs. (assuming dex and ranks are even)

Because they never address the question I always just assumed it was a difference in imaginings of D&D flight. I guess people using the flight spell make some kind of "whoosh". Really though, I believe it was more deliberate than accidental. Flight is already extremely handy, to add a massive MS bonus would make it too handy to be gained at the levels it is. They disguise a balance decision as an oversight.

[NiteCyper]

Is speech (or Wilhelm scream) an immediate action?
Surprise round: Entangling Exhalation.
I win initiative after the surprise round attack.
At the start of my turn (upkeep), the lingering damage kills them.
I've ruled that if they live after the surprise round, they get to shout in pain.
The listen DC for a battle is -10, but what if you're trying to assassinate someone with a fire Breath Weapon?

No matter how stealthy, the Breath Weapon's Reflex save does not change.
Breath Weapon on a helpless person and they get a Reflex save-whaaat?

[altpersona]

nite, i miss your old system.

[SorO_Lost]

nite, i miss your old system.

Banhammer him! *lights his torch and grabs his pitchfork*

[Brainpiercing]

Also, more relevant to recent posts, Quick Reconnoiter + Deft Strike = <3

What was Deft Strike again? And where?

[carnivore]

Deft Strike
Type: General
Sources: Complete Adventurer
Draconomicon

You can place attacks at weak points in your opponent's defenses.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Spot 10 ranks, sneak attack.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can attempt to find a weak point in a visible target's armor. This requires a Spot check against a DC equal to your target's Armor Class. If you succeed, your next attack against that target (which must be made no later than your next turn) ignores the target's armor bonus and natural armor bonus to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor). Other AC bonuses still apply normally. If you use a ranged weapon to deliver the attack, your opponent must be within 30 feet of you in order for you to benefit from this feat.

 

[Bloody Initiate]

Thank you carnivore.

The only issue with the feat combo is you have to make sure your DM is reading the "as a standard action" part as having to do with the rules for spot checks not for the feat specifically. Then Quick Reconnoiter lets you make that spot check as a free action and you stand a very good chance of ignoring your target's armor most of the time.

[Brainpiercing]

Deft Strike
..

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Spot 10 ranks, sneak attack.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can attempt to find a weak point in a visible target's armor. This requires a Spot check against a DC ...

Well... it says it's a standard action. Does Quick Reconnoitre override that clause? I don't think so, because it only overrides active spot checks as move actions, not as the standard action that deft Strike wants.

*Duh, ninja'd, well, I WAS slow *

[carnivore]

here is the feat for consideration:

Quick Reconnoiter
Type: General
Source: Complete Adventurer

You can learn a lot of information from just a quick scan of an area or object.

Prerequisite: Listen 5 ranks, Spot 5 ranks.
Benefit: You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action.
You also gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks.
Normal: Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action.

there are many situations where a spot check is(or should be) used .... Spot is similar to a Wide Area cursory Search ... when you enter a room you might be asked to make a Spot Check to notice some useful detail, or see an item laying out... but to do a Thorough examination of a Room would require a Search Check for every 5x5 square. Spot is used for other things as well ..... in CO it seems to be mainly associated with finding Hiding or Invisible Characters .... but it does have many other uses.