Hide in Plain Sight

[Hijax]

So, what are the effective ways for a party to deal with creatures that are really good at Hiding In Plain Sight?  I know there are several spells that will find them once we detect them (glitterdust in particular), but other than hiring a rogue with a 40 spot check, what can you recommend?

AFtS the World from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

fixed

[Flay Crimsonwind]

So, what are the effective ways for a party to deal with creatures that are really good at Hiding In Plain Sight?  I know there are several spells that will find them once we detect them (glitterdust in particular), but other than hiring a rogue with a 40 spot check, what can you recommend?

AFtS the World from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

fixed

Hold on, hold on one second. This installation has a substantial gp value attached to it.

Um... isn't the whole mpoint of an ability to not be easily beat? I'd say try and get lifesense, if you've got a charrie able to. It's just that sweet, flavor or otherwise. But I'm pretty sure it's been suggested by now.

[Vicerious]

Don't neglect your spot check?

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

I get a little frustrated with the schools of thought that throw out entire aspects as a character as "Irrelevant". Your spot check, your listen check, and your sense motive check all matter.

Check Child of Shadow stance again.  It specifically says the concealment it grants can't be used for hiding in plain sight.

[Anklebite]

Don't neglect your spot check?

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

I get a little frustrated with the schools of thought that throw out entire aspects as a character as "Irrelevant". Your spot check, your listen check, and your sense motive check all matter.

Check Child of Shadow stance again.  It specifically says the concealment it grants can't be used for hiding in plain sight.

I was going to say that too, but then I noticed he's using it to obscure the daylight around him so he can hide during the day.

[NiteCyper]

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

What are you hiding behind?

[-0700 25/03/2010 Thu 15:37:51]
Checks the description of the "Child of Shadow" Shadow Hand stance. Yeah, what are you hiding behind, bro?

[-0700 25/03/2010 Thu 15:38:55]
Checks immediately previous posts after posting this. Man, I'm so late.

Post-redemption: I'd still argue that just because you're carrying a parasol (i.e. "Child of Shadow") doesn't mean you're in shadowy illumination IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, thus you're without a form of concealment or cover to fulfill the prerequisite for the Dark template's HiPS (ex).

Argument-example: I'm outside, carrying a parasol to keep the sun off my body. As a GM, you'd rule this to mean I'm in shadowy illumination, thus I have concealment? GET REAL!

i.e. With the Dark template, you still need a form of concealment or cover to Hide behind. The Dark template's HiPS (ex) ability only obsolesces the observation factor, but not the other.

[Havok4]

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

What are you hiding behind?

Nothing, due to hide in plain sight.

[NiteCyper]

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

What are you hiding behind?

Nothing, due to hide in plain sight.

That's not possible with the extraordinary version of the HiPS ability granted by the Dark template.

At best, you're a floating ball of shadow(s).

[Havok4]

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

What are you hiding behind?

Nothing, due to hide in plain sight.

That's not possible with the extraordinary version of the HiPS ability granted by the Dark template.

At best, you're a floating ball of shadow(s).

Well that is stupid, and it makes the template a lot less useful. The writers of that must have forgotten that the creature would still need concealment or cover.

[Bloody Initiate]

I'm playing a character with the Dark Template and I get to hide in combat constantly (I take the -20, and I don't care if I get noticed, because the possibility of vanishing from sight is worth it). I also carry my own shadowy illumination with me (Child of Shadow Stance says I'm running around with my own little shadow cloud).

My hide check at level 7 is +23. Thus when I hide in combat my hide check becomes +3. Anyone can get lucky and beat that, and people with a good spot check constantly beat that. That -20 hurts, but against people who don't think spot is a pointless skill I win.

What are you hiding behind?

Nothing, due to hide in plain sight.

That's not possible with the extraordinary version of the HiPS ability granted by the Dark template.

At best, you're a floating ball of shadow(s).

Well that is stupid, and it makes the template a lot less useful. The writers of that must have forgotten that the creature would still need concealment or cover.

To be honest, it hasn't actually come up. We're in the Underdark or otherwise indoors half the time, I have yet to be in direct sunlight when I hid in plain sight. The one fight we had outside in the daylight our enemies spotted me anyway.

My point was not that I hide successfully all the time, but that I DON'T because the -20 hurts and pretty much levels you with anyone who has been putting ranks in spot. It's usually worse than 50% success.
 So my suggestion to answer the OP's question was simply to have some people with good spot checks in the party. You don't need a +40 spot check to see someone who is taking -20 for hiding in combat.

As for balls of shadow and hiding in combat, I can work the words if necessary but most of the time I don't need to. We're often in very dark places and combat is a frantic, confusing mess. Slipping out of sight is possible, but hard. If someone has a good spot check, it's very unlikely I can hide from them. If they don't think it's necessary, then chances are they're going to be flat-footed a lot against me (I don't even use Child of Shadow now that I just got Assassin's Stance).

[Redeemer of Ogar]

I get a little frustrated with the schools of thought that throw out entire aspects as a character as "Irrelevant". Your spot check, your listen check, and your sense motive check all matter.

My wizard did not neglect his spot, he picked up a familiar and put a few cross-class ranks into his spot skill.  ...he's up to a modified zero now.

[Bloody Initiate]

I get a little frustrated with the schools of thought that throw out entire aspects as a character as "Irrelevant". Your spot check, your listen check, and your sense motive check all matter.

My wizard did not neglect his spot, he picked up a familiar and put a few cross-class ranks into his spot skill.  ...he's up to a modified zero now.

I understand that wizards don't have spot as a class skill -- but someone in your group does or should, in fact a few people should.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I get a little frustrated with the schools of thought that throw out entire aspects as a character as "Irrelevant". Your spot check, your listen check, and your sense motive check all matter.

My wizard did not neglect his spot, he picked up a familiar and put a few cross-class ranks into his spot skill.  ...he's up to a modified zero now.

Just get an intelligent item.  Smart ones get blindsense and have a bonus for high wis.

[Redeemer of Ogar]

Just get an intelligent item.  Smart ones get blindsense and have a bonus for high wis.

Oooh! I think we have a winner.

[Hijax]

So, what are the effective ways for a party to deal with creatures that are really good at Hiding In Plain Sight?  I know there are several spells that will find them once we detect them (glitterdust in particular), but other than hiring a rogue with a 40 spot check, what can you recommend?

AFtS the World from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

fixed

Hold on, hold on one second. This installation has a substantial gp value attached to it.

yes, but it IS more sure than nukes. nukes, you can have contigency teleports against. atropus(summoned by AftS), not so much.

[Brainpiercing]

So, what are the effective ways for a party to deal with creatures that are really good at Hiding In Plain Sight?  I know there are several spells that will find them once we detect them (glitterdust in particular), but other than hiring a rogue with a 40 spot check, what can you recommend?

Linked Synchronicity?

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok... so since we have a whole thread devoted to HiPS here, and the OP seems to have gotten his answers, how about I slightly derail it to discuss just how the hell HiPS works in the first place.


So let's compare two characters. Both have a +30 hide check, and like to attack people from hiding. Character A has HiPS. Character B does not.

Scenario 1, Character B:
Character B (the one w/o HiPS) is hidden at least 10 feet away from an enemy. He attacks that enemy once, and then attempts to hide using the "Sniping" rules. He takes a -20 on his attempt. Let's assume there is adequate concealment for him to do so.

Scenario 2, Character B:
Character B is hiding, and decides to attack his enemy with a melee attack this time. Per the rules on the Hide skill, he can actually hide while attacking if he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check. So he attempts this.


Now let's look at what happens with Character A in both Scenarios.

Scenario 1, Character A:
Character A (the one with HiPS) is hidden at least 10 feet away from an enemy. He attacks that enemy once, and wants to rehide afterward. Does he take a -20 on his attempt?

Scenario 2, Character A:
Character B is hiding, and decides to attack his enemy with a melee attack this time. He only makes one attack, and uses a Move action to rehide. Does he take a -20 penalty on this due to "hiding while attacking"?


If you answered yes he takes the -20 penalty to either of the questions for character A, then my follow-up question is this: What fucking good is HiPS? If I can do the exact same things without it, and suffer all of the same penalties with it, why even bother with it? It seems like a mostly useless ability, unless you're trying to run away from someone, instead of kill them.

I think the -20 penalty shouldn't apply to the character with HiPS at all. That penalty is there to represent the difficulty of a normal character (without HiPS) trying to stay hidden because if they are revealed it is impossible to re-hide afterward. The HiPS character doesn't have to stay hidden, because he can re-hide right in front of his enemies face.

[archangel.arcanis]

I think one of the more difficult things is quantifying when HiPS applies. In the SRD Shadow Dancer and Assassin get to use it when within 10' of a shadow that isn't theirs, oddly it claims you hide in that shadow but makes no mention of actual movement. Rangers qualifier is natural terrain but no mention of shadows or concealment. And on the really!? scale Rogues don't have it at all despite them being the ones who would use it the most.

[Brainpiercing]

Scenario 1, Character B:
Character B (the one w/o HiPS) is hidden at least 10 feet away from an enemy. He attacks that enemy once, and then attempts to hide using the "Sniping" rules. He takes a -20 on his attempt. Let's assume there is adequate concealment for him to do so.

Scenario 2, Character B:
Character B is hiding, and decides to attack his enemy with a melee attack this time. Per the rules on the Hide skill, he can actually hide while attacking if he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check. So he attempts this.


Now let's look at what happens with Character A in both Scenarios.

Scenario 1, Character A:
Character A (the one with HiPS) is hidden at least 10 feet away from an enemy. He attacks that enemy once, and wants to rehide afterward. Does he take a -20 on his attempt?

Scenario 2, Character A:
Character B is hiding, and decides to attack his enemy with a melee attack this time. He only makes one attack, and uses a Move action to rehide. Does he take a -20 penalty on this due to "hiding while attacking"?


If you answered yes he takes the -20 penalty to either of the questions for character A, then my follow-up question is this: What fucking good is HiPS? If I can do the exact same things without it, and suffer all of the same penalties with it, why even bother with it? It seems like a mostly useless ability, unless you're trying to run away from someone, instead of kill them.

I think the -20 penalty shouldn't apply to the character with HiPS at all. That penalty is there to represent the difficulty of a normal character (without HiPS) trying to stay hidden because if they are revealed it is impossible to re-hide afterward. The HiPS character doesn't have to stay hidden, because he can re-hide right in front of his enemies face.

The difference is that the character with HiPS can do this (sometimes without cover,) in melee, without relocating, and without a bluff check. Also, the character with HiPS can actually make a full-attack, because if you read the hide action exactly it says:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

So: You make a full-attack, then hide with a five-foot step with a -20 penalty. That's the real biggie here I think.

Also, it might be feasable to even optimise this to a decent degree to actually take the -20 penalty without too many problems against un-optimised enemies:

Dark Whisper Gnome gets something like +16  (+8 from Dark,IIRC, +4 Whisper gnome, +4 size). Let's say this is level 4 (your party mates being level 5, due to LA or buyback), 7 ranks, 4 dex, +2 compentence with a masterwork item, makes +29. I'm sure that's not nearly the end. For instance, a Totemist 2 dip provides with reasonable certainty +4 (competence), the Shadow armour enchantment can give you +5 competence for 3750, OR a custom Hide item can give you the same for 2500.
When you look at enemies of that CR you have fair chances of being able to hide from them immediately after making a full-attack.

[PhaedrusXY]

The difference is that the character with HiPS can do this (sometimes without cover,) in melee, without relocating, and without a bluff check. Also, the character with HiPS can actually make a full-attack

So can the guy without HiPS. The rules explicitly say that you can hide while attacking with a -20 hide penalty.

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

So again, the non-HIPS guy can do that just fine. He doesn't need to make a bluff check, either. If he made a bluff check, he also wouldn't have to take the -20 penalty. He could just hide without it.

So: You make a full-attack, then hide with a five-foot step with a -20 penalty. That's the real biggie here I think.

Except that a 5' step is not "normal movement". So it is very debatable if you can hide as part of it. And this is a red herring, anyway. Per the rules I quoted above, the guy without HiPS can also do this (if anyone can), by taking a -20 attack penalty.


So again, what exactly is HIPS good for, other than running away? It looks like nothing to me, unless you go with my suggestion that the -20 penalties don't apply for a character with HiPS when he tries to attack once and then re-hide afterward.

[Absolon]

When adventuring with my wizard, I wouldn't be caught without preparing Dragonsight from SpC.  It lasts an hour/CL and gives you Low-light vision(at 10ft/CL), Darkvision (at 10ft/CL) and Blindsense (at 5ft/CL).  Not as good as Blindsight, but you don't have to make spot or listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range as long as you have LOS.