OOC Discussion

[VennDygrem]

Alright. There's plenty for Curyll to do in the mean-time.

Everyone else is free to do as they wish in town, by the way.

If you guys are waiting for more direction, I thought I had provided plenty, plus if you've forgotten why you're here, that's what the General Player Knowledge post is for.

[VennDygrem]

Not that there's anything wrong with it, but what did Delphina do to Gerand to earn his ire?

[Agita]

She had the gall to be a flat, pretty damsel in distress (Although they only found out about her after the fact)?

So, unlike Bowen, my RL situation seems to be stabilizing somewhat. Aside from test and random homework that doesn't require much attention on my part (hey, the learn just before going to bed method has earned me three perfect scores so far ), I've got two long essays to do, which I want to have completed as soon as possible (I'll probably pull an all-nighter for each, as I work best under pressure). In six weeks the school year's out, then I've got to do three written graduation exams. After that there's one month of lull in the action in which I have to learn (read: free time ), then oral exams, then I'll have more free time than I know what to do with.

tl, dr: While I'm not quite ready to join up yet, if you'll have me I can definitely start thinking about a build already. I've got a few basic concepts - a Human Sorcerer (AoE Striker and basically a port-over of a 3.5 character I enjoyed playing), a Half-Elf Paladin (Defender/Leader), and a Half-Elf Bard (Uber-Leader and skill monkey). The latter two are just different implementations of the same basic concept, but since there's already a Pally in the team, I'm leaning towards the Bard. I've also got a sort of in-joke going with a friend over IM that Bards are broken. What does the rest of the team think? The way I see it, there's 1.5 Strikers and 1.5 Defenders, but only one Leader.

[VennDygrem]

Well, there's a leader, a controller, a defender, a defender/striker, and a striker. More of any role never hurts. In my RL game, the group is fairly huge, but consists primarily of strikers.

Really it's up to you to decide what would be most fun to play. Suffice it to say, though, that Bards can be incredibly versatile. I played a Dragonborn Bard for a short while and he was quite fun.

[Nanshork]

Bards are nice and can secondary pretty much anything.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

Not that there's anything wrong with it, but what did Delphina do to Gerand to earn his ire?

I was actually thinking the opposite originally, then I remembered my father was driven out of my life and possibly killed, and my mother was driven to poverty, while I was driven to a life of servitude under the Queen of Air and Darkness, all because of my elf community. Way I see it, I probably am pretty damn suspicious and bitter towards elves, royalpeasant or not. If I don't feel outright malice towards them.

So I'm a self-hating racist this game. So sue me.

[Nanshork]

That reminds me, Venn do you want me to come up with a better backstory?

[Agita]

Yeah, I'll probably go with Bard since I've been wanting to try one.

Bards are nice and can primary pretty much anything.

Fixed that for you. No, seriously. Being allowed to break the 'only one multiclass rule' is just that good.

Anyway, I'm not looking to be a Bard-based Feycharger and steal Bowen's DPR spotlight in Paragon, I'll just be going for a straight leader build. Right now, what most concerns me is feats. Versatile Expertise is a "You take this, period" feat, the only question is when. Right now I'm debating between putting it behind me right now and swallowing it with a lot of water or taking something more fun like Bard of All Trades (look ma, no training!) and put it off until slightly later. Any word on how much combat this part of the campaign has compared to encounters where skills would be useful?

[VennDygrem]

The beginning part of the campaign, comprising the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure, focuses a lot more heavily on combat than on skills, though there are a good amount of skills that are useful. I also try to inject extra uses and possibilities to make use of skills where possible.So don't neglect skills, but they're not quite as useful for now.

I'll answer other questions in a little bit.

[Agita]

I'll probably place higher priority on Versatile or other feats, then, as Bards get five skills anyway and nearly all skills as class skills.

Heroic Feats I (might) want:
Versatile Expertise (Feat Tax. Blech.)
Toughness (Defenderish HP on a Leader)
Superior Implement Training (may not be necessary if I choose to focus on weaplements via either AIP or Songblades)
Melee Training ('Nother Feat Tax. Still Blech)
Bard of All Trades (Makes my untrained skills one point worse than my trained skills)
Improved Majestic Word
Arcane Implement Proficiency (opens up choices for weapon enchantments, perhaps most notably Farbond Spellblade, which lets me use basically all my powers, melee, ranged, or implement, with a single item)
Skill Power (So many options. I'll have to look at all possibilities.)
White Lotus Riposte (Prereq for Master Riposte)
Action Surge
Mark of Warding
Not even counting Multiclasses yet (Paladin for Wrath of the Gods looks extremely tasty, as does Warlord for an ED and moar healing).

That's 11. The last four aren't all that necessary, though (IMW might not be either, since my Virtue already hands out THP), with AIP being the one I'm most on the edge about.
Feats I actually get in Heroic? 6. Notice how without the VE feat tax, cutting four of those would work out perfectly fine.

[VennDygrem]

I might hand out bonus feats for good roleplaying. Of course, I need to be a good enough DM to provide opportunities to do so, but we'll just see what we can accomplish together, eh?

@Nanshork: Looking at what you've got so far, I've got an idea for an "Expanded Character Trait" (what I'm planning to replace the soul-weapons with, essentially; Giving you guys either bonuses or enhancing existing powers or class abilities based on how your character develops, their background, how they're played in-game, etc.), but if you expand and elaborate, it might be easier to justify it. You guys don't need lengthy backgrounds right now, you can feel free to let it develop as you continue playing. But the more you know your character, the better you can portray them. That goes for all of you, though some of you have extensive backgrounds as-is.

[Nanshork]

Let me be honest.  I'm lazy.   

I threw that together so I'd have something because when I'd be able to play was a bit up in the air.  Honestly, if you would like a little more effort it's not a problem at all for me to put it in, but if you don't care I'm going to continue to be lazy.   

[VennDygrem]

Elaborate just a little bit more then, maybe.

[VennDygrem]

Don't worry Risada, I decided you didn't need to roll the streetwise this time. I'm gonna post up what you guys find in the tavern a little bit later tonight.

[Nanshork]

Elaborate just a little bit more then, maybe.

Can do, I'll do it tomorrow while I'm at work.

[Agita]

Perliminary sheet. I've decided to swallow the Expertise pill now and start taking more interesting feats next level. Important stuff up in the air is the Dilletante power and the Daily, plus future planning. Less important stuff includes her third language and the other free ritual that I'll never use because I still need to pay to do so. I'm getting the crunch out of the way and will write up some nice fluff for the DM to cuddle with later. Don't worry, I've got the concept fleshed out in my head.

The Dilletante power will be a cha-based weapon attack for simplicity. I'm wavering mostly between Eldritch Strike (MBA, forced movement), Virtuous Strike (MBA), Enfeebling Strike (Debuff), and Demoralizing Strike (Awesome debuff - not augmentable, but strictly better than Guiding Strike in Heroic and Paragon). Magic Weapon is winsome, but needs Combat Virtuoso to be effective. The MBA powers are attractive because they save me taking Melee Training starting at Paragon, but that may not be as necessary if no other character in the party can grant free MBAs. Eldritch Strike also works with White Lotus feats, I guess, but so do my class at-wills.

The melee weapon Daily 1 choices are a bit underwhelming compared to the Implement and ranged weapon powers at the level, but oh well. Of them, Slayer's song seems most attractive, although less so than if we had a Rogue in the party. Verse of Triumph is cool repositioning and neat small bonuses. Echoes of the guardian looks neat for our resident mark fetishist at first glance, but since the marks have nothing attached, they're actually just a situational attack debuff.

This character will MC into Warlord (using the Martial Power 2 feat that requires 13 Cha rather than Str) for powers and the Warmaster Epic Destiny later on. Mournland Savior is fun and fluffy too, but much of the fluff can be had with Warmaster, and WM is much crunchier. However, this likely won't be much of a factor until Paragon (maybe level 10), as most of the tasty power swap choices come there. I considered MCing Artificer as well for a few leader powers, but in the end it seemed like to much of an investment. I'll come back at higher levels and look at it again.

At some point along the way, this character will most likely pick up Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades) and get a Githyanki Silver Longsword to use with Psychic Lock. Luckily, we've got a Githyanki Artificer around. This, too, will likely happen in early Paragon (as PL goes online then). Until then, I'll need Songblades to tide me over (counting on you for that, oh great Dispenser of Loot) until then, or else I'll have to juggle around swords and wands... with a shield in my off hand too, ideally. And without Quick Draw, most likely.

Also, anyone with a halfway decent MBA ans Immediate actions to spare (So Amnon and Gerard Agile Opportunist was updated to be an Immediate Reaction, so it would interfere with Gerard's Aegis) should plan to take Agile Opportunist early in paragon, preferably at 11 or 12. Bards get a lot of ally slides.
For the lower levels, this character will mostly be a healer/debuffer with a side of buffing and repositioning. Eventually she'll turn into a sort of secondary striker - not by virtue of dealing damage herself, but by increasing the party's damage output through extra attacks and damage/attack roll buffing.

[VennDygrem]

There's a lot there, and not a lot I can interject with. It sounds like you've got the character pretty much figured out mechanically.

[Agita]

Does it? The case is actually the opposite - I'm thinking aloud and fishing for feedback.

On implements, I think I'll either take AIP at 12 or retrain a heroic feat to it at 11, and hope for songblades in the loot to tide me over. until I get a songblade, I can start encounters with a wand drawn, fire off my implement encounter power, then drop it and draw the sword.
I'm considering picking up Warlord MC at 8 and then Power Swap for Instant Planning at 10. It competes with Mantle of Unity at the level, though - basically, it's defense (MoU lets all party members use the highest defense among party members for each defense for a turn per encounter) vs. offense (IP give +Cha to hit or +Cha to speed to everyone for one round - it's a daily, but that's a huge boost).
Really, what I'm debating the most about (or at least, what's most immediately applicable) is the Dilletante power.

[VennDygrem]

What I meant is that you've got the core of your character's mechanics figured out. Seems like you're going for consummate Leader/face. Honestly, I don't have much advice on your power/feat selection since I haven't planned out a Bard that far before, and you're coming at it with a huge amount of forward-planning where that's not entirely necessary for this game. I plan on running it for as long as people are interested, but let's not kid ourselves about how fast these things usually go. We kept up a respectable pace for the first encounter and finished it in, possibly, a record number of pages, but that was a single battle and things can only get more complex from there. The truth about 4E is that it is one part RPG and one part strategy game, and I can't avoid that, but once this beginning adventure is done, and even a little more inside of it than is pre-written, I want to add a lot more opportunities for roleplaying. That means not just have characters that are strong mechanically, but that are also just strong characters. They don't need to be fully-fleshed out at the beginning, but they've got to have some motivations and ambitions, even if they're vague, or even secret from the other characters.

That said, If any of you guys have ideas for your characters and want to discuss them with me privately, please feel free to PM me. While I can't write one of you in to be the main focus of the campaign, I can certainly weave in certain plot elements that have to do with your character and/or their background. I've done that before, and it works out fairly well. In fact, it even helps ensure the game can go on longer by helping me write what I plan to do later on.

As for Agita's character, hopefully some of the rest of you guys have some more specific advice on the build.

[Agita]

Well, it is my opinion that it's always good to plan ahead (even if I almost never do it).
As for skills, I went with a standard Face set of Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Insight. When I pick up Bard of All Trades it won't matter as much, but until then, are there any skills in the party that are glaringly underrepresented? There's already at least one more diplomacy-adept party member in Min, after all. (Note that Helves give another +1 Diplomacy to buddies within 10. )