advice on maximizing two and a half builds...

[nijineko]

i am trying to rebuild two 16th level characters i have previously played.

the first is a human wizard (transmuter specializing w/ div/ill/necro prohibited) 11, master of the unseen hand 5, with stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 12 (before any stat adjusts). feats are currently spell focus and greater - transmutation, spell penetration and greater - transmutation, improved familiar, heighten spell, eschew materials, energy sub - sonic, and subdual sub - sonic. i'm sure that can be improved... i had dumped all my loot-to-date into obtaining a tome of understanding +5, and a headband of intellect, a blessed book, a cloak of elven kind, and a ring of telekinesis... and nothing else. i'm sure that can be fixed too.

i would like this character to stay a full master of the unseen hand, but other than that, i'm pretty open to ideas. my build is not really optimized for anything but the telekinesis, and that not very well either. help, please?



the second is either a cleric/fighter trying to focus on the lightning mace feat, a high dex and str, and anything else that boosts his attacks; stats of 18, 18, 16, 16, 12, 10 (before any stat adjusts-i rolled fairly well)... or a chameleon prestige. his stats are good enough to do a bit of anything.  i was having trouble honing a concept for this one. but i'd be open to anything in a "lightning mace" focus, or the chameleon focus... or both in one. ^^ help please?


the allowed materials are "any official wotc published material" including website, dragon, dungeon, and so forth... or "any official wotc published hardcover only" including the dragon compendium, but not any of the website, or other dragon/dungeon material; depending on which dm is running game. exalted deeds and vile darkness are forbidden by both dms. generally speaking, anything that requires an evil alignment is likely to be nixed too. just fyi for everyone. =D

please quote at least the book any feat, prestige, spell, or power is from so that i can find it. i'm not always familiar with acronyms for the prestiges either, so please use the full title at least once. =D

thank you all for any help and advice you care to give! my min/max-fu is feeling weak. 

oh, and a ghost of some sort works for me too, btw. (just in case a certain someone reads this)

[Solo]

Make a pixie hood Lightening Maces work well with Disciple of Dispater and Katori Resin

[Havok4]

Ghosts really are best for master of the unseen hand, much better than wizard really because a wizard will fall behind in spellcasting and has a lower BAB which is important for telekinesis use.

[nijineko]

Ghosts really are best for master of the unseen hand, much better than wizard really because a wizard will fall behind in spellcasting and has a lower BAB which is important for telekinesis use.

i can see how ghosts would have some advantages... but i don't really see how a wizard would fall behind. isn't the attack bonus derived from int for a MotUH?

[carnivore]

notice:

Telekinesis
Transmutation

Level: Sor/Wiz 5
 
Components: V, S
 
Casting Time: 1 standard action
 
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
 
Target or Targets: See text
 
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
 
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
 
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.

This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.

Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).

Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

Wizards get Poor BAB

 

[Havok4]

Also you gain huge tactical advantages due to being a ghost. And you can keep up your telekinesis all day long.

[nijineko]

ah yes... i thought there was some reason i kept trying to use a battle sorcerer for that build. i think the version with the wizard was slapped together real fast. i haven't looked at these characters in a few years. ^^ sooo, how do i boost the bab? abjurant champion? i think i was just thinking of boosting the spellsave dc as high as i could, hence specialist wizard plus the feats.

what would you recommend? i don't care much what is changed so long as it is a master of the unseen hand, and not evil. ^^

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The major advantage spellcasters get from master of the unseen hand is the ability to use full attacks and chain telekinesis

Full attacks are at BAB = your caster level.  Chain telekinesis lets you effect up to 21 different weapons.  Yeah.

[Littha]

so what happens if your caster level is 50+? do you get iterative attacks every 5 CL?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

so what happens if your caster level is 50+? do you get iterative attacks every 5 CL?

"just as with nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every five points of Base Attack Bonus above +1 (using caster level for base attack bonus as described above)".  So I'd argue that it's capped at four iteratives, though you could possibly make an argument for it not being.

I'm sorry, by the way.  BAB = your caster level PLUS ability mod, not just caster level.

By the way, this is done as sustaining concentration (IE, standard action), and you can move weapons up to 20 feet before attacking.  You can't use weapon-related feats (like weapon focus or power attack), unfortunately. 

Just shows how much casters shaft normal classes.  Well, that and how awesome telekinesis is.

[Littha]

I'm somewhat surprised there is no psionic version of this class tbh...

[nijineko]

there were some suggestions for allowing psionic equivalent effects to qualify for various prestiges and what not, but i don't recall which book i read it in.

[nijineko]

for the ghost bit, i won't be able to use the savage progressions from the site, that particular dm has a hang-up about only using "book" based materials. hence, no dungeon or dragon, but he allows the dragon compendium. so i'll have to use material from the ghostwalk campaign option instead. fortunately they have a version of ghost progression which isn't too bad a hit on the levels... only catch is trying to get the telekinesis ability. i'll probably have to take a few ghost levels to properly pull it off.

[Anklebite]

you do realize that you banned divination, right?

[nijineko]

yes... what would you suggest as a better choice / combo?

[gorfnad]

go with banning evocation/necromancy/enchantment since a wizard can't ban divination

[Maat_Mons]

For the master of the unseen hand, you should take practiced spellcaster.  That bumps your caster level up to 15.  You then add your levels in master of the unseen hand to your caster level to determine your effective caster level for telekinesis, 20. 

If you are going to have a ring of telekinesis, take note of this rule from the Dungeon Master's Guide (including errata):

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

So if you craft the ring, it can have caster level 20 instead of 9.  Alternately, since you can upgrade any item you can create, you can buy the ring at caster level 9 and upgrade it to caster level 20.  Since the cost of the ring is not a function of caster level, you don't need to spend any gold or XP. 

While it is technically possible to pay another caster to upgrade the ring, your DM may frown on that. 

[zavule]

Wasn't there a "Jean Gray" build around here somewhere that used wu jen to excellent effect?

[nijineko]

thank you for those mentions. i was trying to calc the cost of boosting a ring of telekinesis and was getting odd numbers. course, i was using heighten spell to get the power limit on the spell up to do so.

if there are any builds, i should very much like to see them. =D

heck, if i can talk the dm into it, i'll use psionics to qualify. i'm open on what is best in order to qualify for the prestige, really.

[nijineko]

anyone know where that telekinetic build was?