|
PhaedrusXY
|
 |
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2010, 11:31:34 PM » |
|
What makes fog any less opaque than pants? True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both are visible, and True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both the pants and the person are invisible. So if a person and a fog are invisible, how is that any different? How can you 'turn off' the True Sight for the fog, and have it 'turned on' when it gets to the person inside?
The same way that you can see and hear at the same time. Or a bat can use echolocation and his eyes at the same time. those are completely different senses. More so than "magic vision" and "normal vision"? How about this: Ever seen a hologram? Can you see what's behind it at the same time? Or ever seen a partial reflection in a window? You can choose to focus on either the reflection or the view behind it, but you can still see both at the same time. I don't see why this can't work like that, seeing both images at the same time, and nothing in the rules that I see says that it can't. You guys are sticking the "forces" part in there when it actually isn't. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
|
|
|
|
Bauglir
|
|
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2010, 11:37:38 PM » |
|
I rule in on the side of True Seeing being foiled by such means. It's an ambiguous situation, and quite frankly I like to rule in favor of creative solutions, especially when they're solutions to one of the most absurdly powerful spells in the game. I mean, I think it comes back to one of those nice rules for practical optimization: given two equally supported positions, the least broken one is the one that is to be preferred. In this case, there is precisely no clarification given in the rules for how True Seeing-sight works with normal sight, if even they're different things (True Seeing may just be an enhancement to normal vision, in which case there's nothing to switch focus BETWEEN).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
|
|
|
|
Anklebite
|
|
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 11:40:56 PM » |
|
either you pierce the veil of illusion or you do not. unless there is a handy little clause, like there is in see invisibility. you see things as they really are; unfortunately for you, there really is a cloud of fog in the way. it just so happens to be invisible.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo
|
|
|
|
RelentlessImp
|
|
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 11:45:40 PM » |
|
I rule in on the side of True Seeing being foiled by such means. It's an ambiguous situation, and quite frankly I like to rule in favor of creative solutions, especially when they're solutions to one of the most absurdly powerful spells in the game. I mean, I think it comes back to one of those nice rules for practical optimization: given two equally supported positions, the least broken one is the one that is to be preferred. In this case, there is precisely no clarification given in the rules for how True Seeing-sight works with normal sight, if even they're different things (True Seeing may just be an enhancement to normal vision, in which case there's nothing to switch focus BETWEEN).
Doesn't it stop being creative once it's been discussed to death on an optimization forum? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Negative Zero
|
|
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2010, 11:53:48 PM » |
|
What makes fog any less opaque than pants? True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both are visible, and True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both the pants and the person are invisible. So if a person and a fog are invisible, how is that any different? How can you 'turn off' the True Sight for the fog, and have it 'turned on' when it gets to the person inside?
The same way that you can see and hear at the same time. Or a bat can use echolocation and his eyes at the same time. those are completely different senses. More so than "magic vision" and "normal vision"? How about this: Ever seen a hologram? Can you see what's behind it at the same time? Or ever seen a partial reflection in a window? You can choose to focus on either the reflection or the view behind it, but you can still see both at the same time. I don't see why this can't work like that, seeing both images at the same time, and nothing in the rules that I see says that it can't. You guys are sticking the "forces" part in there when it actually isn't. Alright, I like the metaphors. Fair enough, I see where you're coming from. Your position is a viable one, although I still feel that both interpretations have merit, bringing us back to the old 'YMMV' thing. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
The_Mad_Linguist
|
|
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2010, 11:59:13 PM » |
|
How about this: Ever seen a hologram? Can you see what's behind it at the same time? Or ever seen a partial reflection in a window? You can choose to focus on either the reflection or the view behind it, but you can still see both at the same time. I don't see why this can't work like that, seeing both images at the same time, and nothing in the rules that I see says that it can't.
You guys are sticking the "forces" part in there when it actually isn't.
because if that were the default, we wouldn't have a clause in see invisible that tells it it works like that for that particular spell and not in true seeing. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
|
|
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2010, 01:05:36 AM » |
|
unless they are wearing NO pants...  Done that. Those DnD characters are the best kind.  one of those nice rules for practical optimization: given two equally supported positions, the least broken one is the one that is to be preferred. I wish more people understood this (most of BG does though). Now adding in rule of cool: given two equally supported positions, the least broken one that is still cool is the one that is to be preferred. That's why get that dragonwraught kobold loredrake silliness from. RAW? I don't give a f*ck. Its silly and cool at the same time. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
|
|
|
The_Mad_Linguist
|
|
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2010, 01:28:22 AM » |
|
unless they are wearing NO pants... Done that. Those DnD characters are the best kind. "I only wear magic items" |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Anklebite
|
|
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2010, 01:35:09 AM » |
|
unless they are wearing NO pants... Done that. Those DnD characters are the best kind. "I only wear magic items" " hey guys whats u- FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS MAN GO BUY SOME FRIGGEN UNDERWEAR!" |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo
|
|
|
|
The_Mad_Linguist
|
|
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2010, 03:23:33 AM » |
|
Anyway, it should be obvious that true seeing is based off of line of sight rather than line of effect.
Can you see an invisible guy behind a wall of force using true seeing?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
PhaedrusXY
|
|
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2010, 08:55:27 AM » |
|
Alright, I like the metaphors. Fair enough, I see where you're coming from. Your position is a viable one, although I still feel that both interpretations have merit, bringing us back to the old 'YMMV' thing.
I actually don't have a strong opinion either way on what the "RAW" is. I was just playing devil's advocate. I personally interpret interactions with True Seeing and Mind Blank in the ways that nerf those spells the most, because of exactly what Bauglir said. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
|
|
|
Black Knight
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 199
|
|
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2010, 11:35:18 AM » |
|
What makes fog any less opaque than pants? True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both are visible, and True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both the pants and the person are invisible. So if a person and a fog are invisible, how is that any different? How can you 'turn off' the True Sight for the fog, and have it 'turned on' when it gets to the person inside?
It's not about being less opaque, it's the fact that fog is not a solid object. True Seeing explicitly states that it does not penetrate solid objects. So, solid objects stop it cold. Pants are a solid object. Ergo, can't True See past them. The underlying question here is: Does the invisible fog grant concealment to the invisible or visible person in the middle of it? If it does then True Seeing doesn't see them, and if it does not grant concealment, then True Seeing reveals them. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you are an ethical person, you do the right thing even when no one is watching...
|
|
|
|
snakeman830
|
|
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2010, 11:57:08 AM » |
|
What makes fog any less opaque than pants? True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both are visible, and True Seeing cannot let you see through the pants of someone if both the pants and the person are invisible. So if a person and a fog are invisible, how is that any different? How can you 'turn off' the True Sight for the fog, and have it 'turned on' when it gets to the person inside?
It's not about being less opaque, it's the fact that fog is not a solid object. True Seeing explicitly states that it does not penetrate solid objects. So, solid objects stop it cold. Pants are a solid object. Ergo, can't True See past them. The underlying question here is: Does the invisible fog grant concealment to the invisible or visible person in the middle of it? If it does then True Seeing doesn't see them, and if it does not grant concealment, then True Seeing reveals them. yes, the invisible fog would provide concealment to the invisible guy inside. True Seeing lets you see both as though they weren't invisible, so the normal rules for such a situation apply (i.e., a guy in a Fog Cloud has concealment) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
|
|
Black Knight
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 199
|
|
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2010, 12:52:54 PM » |
|
Let's say you have a visible creature (a Dragon) that is polymorphed into a Human in the middle of this invisible fog cloud.
You have True Seeing active.
Do you see the Dragon, or the Human?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you are an ethical person, you do the right thing even when no one is watching...
|
|
|
|
Solo
|
|
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2010, 12:53:55 PM » |
|
Dragon, I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
snakeman830
|
|
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2010, 12:54:03 PM » |
|
Let's say you have a visible creature (a Dragon) that is polymorphed into a Human in the middle of this invisible fog cloud.
You have True Seeing active.
Do you see the Dragon, or the Human?
You see the fog cloud. The dragon gets total concealment from the cloud, so you don't see it regardless. Now, if you were adjacent to the dragon (within 5 ft), then you would see the dragon. Of course, this function of True Seeing always confused me, especially when different sizes are invovled. Do you attack the dragon and miss because it isn't actually in a square you threaten? Do you react to the Human polymorphed into an Ogre as though he were still a human? There are a lot of questions that get raised on this point, but those don't really make a difference to the answer to your question. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:57:17 PM by snakeman830 »
|
Logged
|
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
|
|
|
Hallack
|
|
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2010, 12:55:39 PM » |
|
Let's say you have a visible creature (a Dragon) that is polymorphed into a Human in the middle of this invisible fog cloud.
You have True Seeing active.
Do you see the Dragon, or the Human?
You see the fog cloud. The dragon gets total concealment from the cloud, so you don't see it regardless. Now, if you were adjacent to the dragon (within 5 ft), then you would see the dragon. QFT +1 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Black Knight
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 199
|
|
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2010, 05:21:27 PM » |
|
Ok. Now let's say you have both True Seeing and See Invisibility active.
Do you see the Fog Cloud, the Human or the Dragon? Or all of the above?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you are an ethical person, you do the right thing even when no one is watching...
|
|
|
|
snakeman830
|
|
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2010, 05:22:27 PM » |
|
Ok. Now let's say you have both True Seeing and See Invisibility active.
Do you see the Fog Cloud, the Human or the Dragon? Or all of the above?
all of the above, it looks like. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
|
|
|
The_Mad_Linguist
|
|
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2010, 05:33:55 PM » |
|
True seeing can't enhance the effects of other spells.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
