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Author Topic: [3.5] Mana Mage (~MTG)  (Read 2987 times)
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Sohala
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« on: February 26, 2010, 01:32:18 AM »

 Mana Mage

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
10th
11th
12th
13th
14th
15th
16th
17th
18th
19th
20th
  Base Attack Bonus
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5
+11/+6/+1
+12/+7/+2
+12/+7/+2
+13/+8/+3
+14/+9/+4
+15/+10/+5
  Fort Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12
  Ref Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6
  Will Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12
  Mana/day
+3
+6
+9
+12
+15
+18
+21
+24
+27
+30
+33
+36
+39
+42
+45
+48
+51
+54
+57
+60
  Special
Mana burn, mana colors
-
-
Mana mastery
-
-
-
Mana mastery
-
Mana control
-
Mana mastery
-
-
-
Mana mastery
-
-
-
Mana mastery, planeswalker

Mana Mages draw their magic from the changing of the land in which they have strong ties or memories of. From the land they derive five different colours of magic. From this magic they can cast spells.  Not all Mana Mages rely solely on there magic, some mix and match arcane and steel.

Game Rule Information

Mana Mages have the following game statistics.

    Abilities: Wisdom and intelligence determine how powerful a spell a mana mage can cast, how hard those spells are to resist, and any extra mana a mana mage get per day. To cast a spell, a mana mage must have a Wisdom or Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw for a mana mage’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the mana mage’s Wisdom or Intelligence modifier (whichever is higher).

    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills

The mana mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentrate (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis). In addition a mana mage gains access to additional class skills based on the colors of spells he or she casts:

   Red: Intimidate (Cha), Survival (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis).
   Green: Heal (Wis), Handel Animal (Cha), Survival (Wis).
   Black: Intimidate (Cha), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex).
   Blue: Move Silently (Dex), Hide (Dex), Bluff (Cha).
   White: Heal (Wis), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha).

See Chapter 4 in the Core Rulebook 1 for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: 4+ Int modifier x 4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4+ Int modifier

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the mana mage

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A mana mage is proficient with all simple weapons, light hammer, battleaxe, long sword, scimitar, war hammer, halberd, light and heavy shields, and light and medium armor. Mana Mages are prohibited from exotic weapons.

    Spells: A mana mage casts arcane spells. Mana mages know a spell if it is of their chosen color(s) (refer to Mana Colors below)  or a colorless spell and only if the spell level is half their class level (rounded up) or less. To learn or cast a spell, a mana mage must have a Wisdom or Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw for a mana mage’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the mana mage’s Wisdom or Intelligence modifier (whichever is higher).

    Mana Colors: At first level mana mages chooses up to three different colors of mana they will be able to draw from their memories of the land. The caster makes this choose from the colors red, green, black, blue, and white. Depending on the number of colors the player chooses depends on the amount of mana of each color he or she will receive, displayed in the table below. The colors a mana mage chooses determines which color spells he will be able to cast. A mana mage also gets a base pool of mana, determined by his class level, that can be used as any color mana. A mana mage must rest for at least four hours a day to recover their full reserve of mana.

Colors
1
2
3
  Bonus
Int bonus + wis bonus (max 6)
Int bonus + wis bonus (max 6)
Int bonus + wis bonus (max 6)
  Multiplier
x 3
x 1.5 (round up)
x 1
  Color Multiplier
x mana mage level for chosen color
x mana mage level for each of chosen colors
x mana mage level for each of chosen colors

    Mana Burn: When casting spells, the caster takes 1 point of subduel damage, if his or her spell is interrupted, per mana being used for the spell.

    Mana Masteries: At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level the mana mage can gain one mastery, as long as it matches one of the mana mage’s selected colors. These ablities don't apply to spell casting from other classes. A mana mage may select each of the following abilities only once, unless otherwise stated:

    Armored Mage (Any): As long as a mana mage is wearing only light armor, he suffers no chance of arcane spell failure while wearing armor. At level 10 and after, this benefit applies to medium armor as well.

    Shielded Mage (Any): A mana mage who uses only light or heavy shields, not a tower shield, suffers no chance of arcane spell failure for using a shield.

    Channel Spell (Any): A mana mage may channel any spell he can cast into his weapons. Using this ability requires a move action and uses up the same amount of mana as if he had cast the spell. The channeled spell affects the next target that the mana mage successfully attacks with his weapon (saving throws and spell resistance still apply). Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target. The spell is discharged from the weapon, which can then hold another spell. A mana mage can channel his spells into only one weapon at a time.

    Bonus Feat (Any): A mana mage may select any wizard or fighter feat. The mana mage must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat. A mana mage may select this mastery more than once.

    Improved Calling (Green): All creatures called by the mana mage are treated as if affected by the Augment Summoning feat and the Extend Spell feat. The levels of summoning spells don’t change. This ability stacks with both the Augment Summoning feat and the Extend Spell feat.

    Animal Companion (Green): A mana mage may gain an animal companion as a ranger.

    Rebuke Undead (Black): A mana mage may rebuke undead as an evil cleric a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A mana mage may only select rebuking or turning, not both.

    Turn Undead (White): A mana mage may turn undead as a good cleric a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A mana mage may only select turning or rebuking, not both.

    Empowered Healing (White): Whenever a mana mage casts a Cure, Healing Circle, Heal or Mass Heal spell, the spell is treated as if it were affected by the Empower Spell feat. The levels of spells don’t change. This ability stacks with the Empower Spell feat.

    Empowered Wounding (Black): Whenever a mana mage casts a Wound, Circle of Doom, Harm or Horrid Wilting spell, the spell is treated as if it were affected by the Empower Spell feat. The levels of spells don’t change. This ability stacks with the Empower Spell feat.

    Pierce Resistance (Red): Whenever a mana mage casts a red spell that deals damage, he may choose to have 10 points of energy damage dealt by the spell to become untyped damage to which energy resistance and immunity do not apply. A mana mage who selects this mastery may select Piercing Evocation as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the requirements, and have it apply to all red spells that deal damage. This ability stacks with the Piercing Evocation feat.

    Elemental Blast (Red): As a standard action a mana mage may make a ranged attack at a target of up to 60 feet away. If successful this attack does 2d6 damage, and is unaffected by spell resistance. Alternatively a mana mage may make a single melee attack and gain a +1 bonus to attack and +1d6 untyped bonus to damage. These abilities increase by 2d6, +1, and +1d6, respectively, for every four mana mage levels, after level four.

    Mysticism (Blue): A mana mage increases the DC of all his illusions by one, and gains a bonus of one to dispel checks. These bonuses increase by one for every four levels of mana mage, after level four.

    Sneak Attack (Blue): A mana mage gains 1d6 sneak attack, as the rogue ability. The extra damage dealt increase by +1d6 for every four levels of mana mage, after level four. If a mana mage gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
 
    Mana Control: Upon acquiring level 10 the mana mage has mastered channeling mana to the point that he no longer takes damage from mana burn.

    Planeswalker: Upon acquiring level 20 the mana mage becomes more than a mere mortal, he becomes a planeswalker. With this ascension the mana mage no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the mana mage still dies of old age when his time is up. Further more the mana mage’s creature type becomes outsider, with the native subtype. Lastly a mana mage gains the ability to use Plane Shift as a supernatural ability, at-will.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 02:49:40 PM by Sohala » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2010, 01:32:36 AM »

Spell List

All spells must be cast with only their color in mana.

Spell Level
Mana Used

 0
1
 1
2
 2
4
 3
6
 4
8
 5
10
 6
12
 7
14
 8
16
 9
18

White
Level 0 Minor Magic
Detect Poison
Purify Food and Drink
Cure Minor Wounds
Resistance

Level 1
Bless
Light of Lunia
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Sanctuary
Cure Light Wounds

Level 2
Owl’s Wisdom
Lesser Restoration
Resist Energy
Calm Emotions
Cure Moderate Wounds

Level 3
Wall of Light
Magic Vestment
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Cure Serious Wounds

Level 4
Divine Power
Lesser Holy Transformation
Raise Dead
Cure Critical Wounds

Level 5
Flame Strike
True seeing
Break Enchantment
Healing Circle

Level 6
Lucent Lance
Undeath to Death
Heal

Level 7
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
Holy Transformation

Level 8
Sunburst
Lion’s Roar
Protection from Spells

Level 9
Mass Heal
True Resurrection

Black
Level 0 Minor Magic
Stick
Disrupt Undead
Inflict Minor Wounds
Touch of Fatigue

Level 1
Bane
Backbiter
Cause Fear
Ray of Enfeeblement
Inflict Light Wounds

Level 2
Darkness
Curse of Ill Fortune
Command Undead
Death Knell
Inflict Moderate Wounds

Level 3
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Undead Lieutenant
Inflict Serious Wounds

Level 4
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Lesser Infernal Transformation
Inflict Critical Wounds

Level 5
Wrack
Slay Living
Spiritwall
Circle of Doom

Level 6
Ghoul Gauntlet
Awaken Undead
Harm

Level 7
Infernal Transformation
Control Undead
Finger of Death

Level 8
Skeletal Guard
General of Undeath
Horrid Wilting

Level 9
Plague of Undead
Energy Drain

Green
Level 0 Minor Magic
Create Water
Dancing Lights
Dawn
Acid Splash

Level 1
Faerie Fire
Longstrider
Speak with Animals
Entangle
Lesser Vigor

Level 2
Splinter Bolt
Mass Snake’s Swiftness
Bear’s Endurance
Barkskin
Bull’s Strength

Level 3
Greater Magic Fang
Speak with Plants
Mass Lesser Vigor
Earthbolt

Level 4
Polymorph
Rusting Grasp
Freedom of Movement
Reincarnate

Level 5
Commune with Nature
Wall of Thorns
Awaken
Transmute Rock to Mud
Transmute Mud to Rock

Level 6
Vigorous Circle
Mass Bull’s Strength
Mass Bear’s Endurance

Level 7
Control Weather
Slime Wave
Giant Size

Level 8
Control Plants
Reverse Gravity
Earthquake

Level 9
Storm of Vengeance
Shapechange

Blue
Level 0 Minor Magic
Ghost Sound
Repair Minor Damage
Mage Hand
Message

Level 1
Grease
True Strike
Silent Image
Obscuring Mist
Charm Person

Level 2
Alter Self
Detect Thoughts
Invisibility
Fox’s Cunning
Levitate

Level 3
Dispel Magic
Major Image
Repair Serious Damage
Fly

Level 4
Scrying
Wall of Ice
Improved Invisibility
Phantasmal Killer

Level 5
Dismissal
Dominate Person
Persistent Image
Feeblemind

Level 6
Eye Bite
Greater Dispel Magic
Mislead

Level 7
Antimagic Ray
Body of War
Mass Invisibility

Level 8
Temporal Stasis
Whirlwind
Screen

Level 9
Dominate Monster
Time Stop

Red
Level 0 Minor Magic
Daze
Flare
Electric Jolt
Ray of Frost

Level 1
Magic Weapon
Endure Elements
Ray of Flame
Cold Fire
Hail of Stone

Level 2
Flaming Sphere
Cat’s Grace
Frost Breath
Shatter
Scorching Ray

Level 3
Fireball
Lighting Bolt
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste

Level 4
Ice Storm
Fire Shield
Assay Spell Resistance
Wall of Fire

Level 5
Ball Lightning
Draconic Might
Call Lightning Storm
Cone of Cold

Level 6
Chain Lightning
Mass Haste
Mass Cat’s Grace

Level 7
Tenser's Transformation
Emerald Flame Fist
Brilliant Aura

Level 8
Iron Body
Stormrage
Incendiary Cloud

Level 9
Transmute Rock to Lava
Meteor Swarm

Colorless
Level 0 Minor Magic
Light
Detect Magic
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Arcane Mark
Mending

Level 1
Color Spray
Shield
Mage Armour
Identify
Feather Fall
Magecraft
Magic Missile
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Call Creature I *

Level 2
Blast of Force
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Blur
Make Whole
Whirling Blade
Web
Call Creature II *

Level 3
Slow
Chain Missile
Water Breathing
Explosive Runes
Glowing Orb
Analyze Portal
Call Creature III *

Level 4
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Dimension Door
Mass Enlarge Person
Mass Reduce Person
Energy Spheres
Call Creature IV *

Level 5
Prismatic Ray
Plane Shift
Teleport
Telekinesis
Shard Storm
Wall of Force
Permanency
Call Creature V *

Level 6
Globe of Invulnerability
Guards and Wards
Move Earth
Control Water
Disintegrate
Analyze Dweomer
Call Creature VI *

Level 7
Prismatic Spray
Forcecage
Greater Plane Shift
Greater Teleport
Call Creature VII *

Level 8
Excavate
Ghostform
Binding
Call Creature VIII *

Level 9
Teleportation Circle
Gate
Genesis
Awaken Construct
Call Creature IX *

*Call Creature, the caster may select from the Summon Monster, Summon Undead, Summon Nature’s Ally, Summon Desert Ally, or Conjure Ice Beast tables, treat each casting according to its respective summon.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 04:46:41 PM by Sohala » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2010, 01:33:00 AM »

This is a class I have been tinkering with for awhile now, it is based around the MTG concept of a spell caster. I know it could still use some work but I think I need help with it. Any comments you have will be appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 01:41:18 AM by Sohala » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 05:24:06 PM »

You should look at the Pratical Demonkeeping guide. The first post has a suggested list of challenge ratings.
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 05:33:23 PM »

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 09:17:49 PM »

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
The dispels I thought would be better in the colorless, not just blue. Blue mages get a counterspell effect via the caster powers. The mana/day is a base amount of mana, I thought that setting it all on stats was a little much, and yes it is meant to be used as any color.

You should look at the Pratical Demonkeeping guide. The first post has a suggested list of challenge ratings.
?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 09:19:26 PM by Sohala » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2010, 02:35:13 AM »

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
The dispels I thought would be better in the colorless, not just blue. Blue mages get a counterspell effect via the caster powers. The mana/day is a base amount of mana, I thought that setting it all on stats was a little much, and yes it is meant to be used as any color.
The problem with that is that blue is, canonically, the only color that gets counters on a regular basis. White got some in Planar Chaos as part of the "playing with the color pie" theme, as did black, but that's it.
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2010, 10:57:41 AM »

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
The dispels I thought would be better in the colorless, not just blue. Blue mages get a counterspell effect via the caster powers. The mana/day is a base amount of mana, I thought that setting it all on stats was a little much, and yes it is meant to be used as any color.
The problem with that is that blue is, canonically, the only color that gets counters on a regular basis. White got some in Planar Chaos as part of the "playing with the color pie" theme, as did black, but that's it.
I follow your reasoning now, I forgot that dispell magic can be used as a counterspell...(wonder if I need to change the power then...)
So if I shift the dispels up to blue it now has to many spells, I am leaning to giving repair to all mages then.
Do you think the Antimagic Ray, Identify, Scrying, and Greater Scrying are still alright as colorless?
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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 11:17:22 AM »

Planeswalker class, sweet. Will critically read through later today.
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 04:58:59 PM »

You should look at the Pratical Demonkeeping guide. The first post has a suggested list of challenge ratings.
?
What I ment by that was, you could use it as a baseline of how powerful the creatures you can summon of the particular spell level instead of restricting specific creatures to specific levels
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 05:03:01 PM by Thine Doom Be Had » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 03:14:30 PM »

Also, we no longer mana burn from using mana because of the new rules updates. Big Grin
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 03:19:19 PM »

Personally, I'd give them spells known as opposed to knowing all spells on their list and expand their lists. A single-color Mage has lots of mana available, but very few spells known (less than a sorcerer). Even a two-color Mage would have as many or fewer than a sorcerer at most levels. Only expanding their lists (without a spells known table) might also work, but you'd have to be careful as Warmage casting+large spell list=trouble.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just noticed the Colorless list... silly me.
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 04:22:46 PM »

Planeswalker class, sweet. Will critically read through later today.
I had not thought to take it to the level of Planeswalker (older version not the new mana bladders). The idea has merit though.

You should look at the Pratical Demonkeeping guide. The first post has a suggested list of challenge ratings.
What I ment by that was, you could use it as a baseline of how powerful the creatures you can summon of the particular spell level instead of restricting specific creatures to specific levels
It is worth looking into, take it off the spell list and give it as baseline ability, change up the green power some to match. I did have to start some sort of monster tagging, way to complicated...but this, this could work.

Also, we no longer mana burn from using mana because of the new rules updates. Big Grin
Oh really? I see what I get for not playing for a few years... (Wouldn’t that make some cards pointless?) But really I still think it is a "decent" theme to have. I originally started this class basing it off the books not the cards, so when some one drew up the energy and did not use it I thought I recalled they got a headache of sorts, guess I could throw wilder similar stuff on instead...

Personally, I'd give them spells known as opposed to knowing all spells on their list and expand their lists. A single-color Mage has lots of mana available, but very few spells known (less than a sorcerer). Even a two-color Mage would have as many or fewer than a sorcerer at most levels. Only expanding their lists (without a spells known table) might also work, but you'd have to be careful as Warmage casting+large spell list=trouble.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just noticed the Colorless list... silly me.
Does this mean the dispells can stay on the colorless list or do you think the dispell themed stuff needs to shift, you also never gave me your thoughts to:

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
The dispels I thought would be better in the colorless, not just blue. Blue mages get a counterspell effect via the caster powers. The mana/day is a base amount of mana, I thought that setting it all on stats was a little much, and yes it is meant to be used as any color.
The problem with that is that blue is, canonically, the only color that gets counters on a regular basis. White got some in Planar Chaos as part of the "playing with the color pie" theme, as did black, but that's it.
I follow your reasoning now, I forgot that dispell magic can be used as a counterspell...(wonder if I need to change the power then...)
So if I shift the dispels up to blue it now has to many spells, I am leaning to giving repair to all mages then.
Do you think the Antimagic Ray, Identify, Scrying, and Greater Scrying are still alright as colorless?
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 04:44:00 PM »

Personally, I'd give them spells known as opposed to knowing all spells on their list and expand their lists. A single-color Mage has lots of mana available, but very few spells known (less than a sorcerer). Even a two-color Mage would have as many or fewer than a sorcerer at most levels. Only expanding their lists (without a spells known table) might also work, but you'd have to be careful as Warmage casting+large spell list=trouble.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just noticed the Colorless list... silly me.
Does this mean the dispells can stay on the colorless list or do you think the dispell themed stuff needs to shift, you also never gave me your thoughts to:

I'm missing all sorts of Dispel effects on blue's list. Counterspells are an iconic part of blue's repertoire, it should get at least some IMO.

Also, I'm not exactly getting the mana system. I assume mana works like power points, but what's the Many/Day column for? Is that an additional amount of mana you get each day? Is it for al colors, only for one color, colorless, or any color?
The dispels I thought would be better in the colorless, not just blue. Blue mages get a counterspell effect via the caster powers. The mana/day is a base amount of mana, I thought that setting it all on stats was a little much, and yes it is meant to be used as any color.
The problem with that is that blue is, canonically, the only color that gets counters on a regular basis. White got some in Planar Chaos as part of the "playing with the color pie" theme, as did black, but that's it.
I follow your reasoning now, I forgot that dispell magic can be used as a counterspell...(wonder if I need to change the power then...)
So if I shift the dispels up to blue it now has to many spells, I am leaning to giving repair to all mages then.
Do you think the Antimagic Ray, Identify, Scrying, and Greater Scrying are still alright as colorless?
No, I'm still of the opinion Dispel Magic and Great Dispel should be blue. Not sure on Scrying, Identify etc. Antimagic Ray is almost certainly blue (perhaps white or even green, as whiteand green are also into destroying enchantments). Pretty much all divinations feel blue, as blue gets the bulk of card drawing, though green also has a few (Commune would most certainly be blue, some other divine Divination spells perhaps too).
Have you considered putting some spells on multiple lists to represent color overlaps?

Actually, expanding color lists and either introducing a spells known system or leaving it as is still seems like a good idea. There's just so many spells that feel like they should be on one of the lists...
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 05:14:55 PM »

No, I'm still of the opinion Dispel Magic and Great Dispel should be blue. Not sure on Scrying, Identify etc. Antimagic Ray is almost certainly blue (perhaps white or even green, as whiteand green are also into destroying enchantments). Pretty much all divinations feel blue, as blue gets the bulk of card drawing, though green also has a few (Commune would most certainly be blue, some other divine Divination spells perhaps too).
Have you considered putting some spells on multiple lists to represent color overlaps?

Actually, expanding color lists and either introducing a spells known system or leaving it as is still seems like a good idea. There's just so many spells that feel like they should be on one of the lists...
Been thinking on it since you mentioned it, I think all 5 colors have at least some countering, however limited it may be. So, just an idea to get your thoughts, leaving Dispel Magic on the colorless spell list but giving all the higher up dispelling to blue, I can probably live with dispels being only blue though.

I agree with you on divinations feel blue, my concern was that a blue mage would either not have utility enough without a second color or their list would be bigger than everyone else’s.

I had thought about overlap, but, then I felt like I was "cheating" people who selected both colors and were short a few spells, given it would be a small number. So I tried to match certain themes to each color and if the spell seemed too much like more than one color I slotted it into colorless or skipped it.

Now on the list sizes, what is your thought on a cap, because I certainly do not want to give to many spells. I really want to keep it to knowing all your spells but limiting the spells, less breakage can happen then, I hope...
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 05:20:20 PM »

Been thinking on it since you mentioned it, I think all 5 colors have atleast some countering, however limited it may be.
Do they? I challenge you to name two for each color outside of blue that were not in Planar Chaos (where messing with the color pie was the whole point) or pre-Odyssey or so (when the color pie was changed around to what it is today).

I had thought about overlap, but, then I felt like I was "cheating" people who selected both colors and were short a few spells, given it would be a small number. So I tryed to match certain themes to each color and if the spell seemed to much like more than one color i slotted it into colorless or skipped it.
Well, a Mana Mage with a spell on two lists, especially a useful one he wants to use a lot, has the advantage that he can use two pools of mana to cast it rather than just one, just like a player putting a hybrid card into his two-color deck.

Now on the list sizes, what is your thought on a cap, cause i certainly do not want to give to many spells.
Frankly, I don't know. Making them a little smaller than the Sorcerer's spells known seems about right.
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 06:59:23 PM »

Been thinking on it since you mentioned it, I think all 5 colors have atleast some countering, however limited it may be.
Do they? I challenge you to name two for each color outside of blue that were not in Planar Chaos (where messing with the color pie was the whole point) or pre-Odyssey or so (when the color pie was changed around to what it is today).
I was able to find two green (Bind, Ouphe Vandals) and two red (Mages' Contest, Molten Influence), two white but they require blue to activate so they do not help much. I can supply other older counters but sadly the ones I was thinking of were much older, mainly Mirage.

I had thought about overlap, but, then I felt like I was "cheating" people who selected both colors and were short a few spells, given it would be a small number. So I tryed to match certain themes to each color and if the spell seemed to much like more than one color i slotted it into colorless or skipped it.
Well, a Mana Mage with a spell on two lists, especially a useful one he wants to use a lot, has the advantage that he can use two pools of mana to cast it rather than just one, just like a player putting a hybrid card into his two-color deck.
I already have it so they can spend any color for half the spell's cost, though I guess I could change that in favor of over lap.

Now on the list sizes, what is your thought on a cap, cause i certainly do not want to give to many spells.
Frankly, I don't know. Making them a little smaller than the Sorcerer's spells known seems about right.
Each color or total for a how many color mage?
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2010, 06:59:47 AM »

You might want to look into the shudenja and wu jen spell lists.
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2010, 07:10:30 AM »

Been thinking on it since you mentioned it, I think all 5 colors have atleast some countering, however limited it may be.
Do they? I challenge you to name two for each color outside of blue that were not in Planar Chaos (where messing with the color pie was the whole point) or pre-Odyssey or so (when the color pie was changed around to what it is today).
I was able to find two green (Bind, Ouphe Vandals) and two red (Mages' Contest, Molten Influence), two white but they require blue to activate so they do not help much. I can supply other older counters but sadly the ones I was thinking of were much older, mainly Mirage.
Both the green ones counter only abilities, which green gets to do ocassionally along with blue. I'd also be hard pressed to find an existing D&D spell to represent it, as activated and triggered abilities are more like (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) abilities, for which there are few spells. Both red counters a)are odyssey or pre-odyssey, so iffy on the color pie, and more importantly b) have a mechanic that had been used previously to allow red to bend the color pie (like black ocassionally does with severe life loss or sacrificing stuff. Molten influence has the Brobeat mechanic, which also allowed card draw, discard and others if the opponent was unwilling to take damage, Mage's Contest has a weird bidding mechanic which has popped up in a few other cards (mostly black, I think). Even then, that's two cards each vs. probably a few dozen blue 'straight' counters in our reference pool.

I had thought about overlap, but, then I felt like I was "cheating" people who selected both colors and were short a few spells, given it would be a small number. So I tryed to match certain themes to each color and if the spell seemed to much like more than one color i slotted it into colorless or skipped it.
Well, a Mana Mage with a spell on two lists, especially a useful one he wants to use a lot, has the advantage that he can use two pools of mana to cast it rather than just one, just like a player putting a hybrid card into his two-color deck.
I already have it so they can spend any color for half the spell's cost, though I guess I could change that in favor of over lap.
Not necessary, I think. If you decide to do the overlap, you could just have equal amounts of overlapping spells in all schools.

Now on the list sizes, what is your thought on a cap, cause i certainly do not want to give to many spells.
Frankly, I don't know. Making them a little smaller than the Sorcerer's spells known seems about right.
Each color or total for a how many color mage?
Not sure. I wanted to say 'each color', but I keep forgetting that everyone gets the colorless list by default as well, so they already have more spells known than a sorcerer.  Bang Head
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2010, 07:56:41 PM »

You might want to look into the shudenja and wu jen spell lists.
I hit up wujen some guess I can go back and look thru them again.

Been thinking on it since you mentioned it, I think all 5 colors have atleast some countering, however limited it may be.
Do they? I challenge you to name two for each color outside of blue that were not in Planar Chaos (where messing with the color pie was the whole point) or pre-Odyssey or so (when the color pie was changed around to what it is today).
I was able to find two green (Bind, Ouphe Vandals) and two red (Mages' Contest, Molten Influence), two white but they require blue to activate so they do not help much. I can supply other older counters but sadly the ones I was thinking of were much older, mainly Mirage.
Both the green ones counter only abilities, which green gets to do ocassionally along with blue. I'd also be hard pressed to find an existing D&D spell to represent it, as activated and triggered abilities are more like (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) abilities, for which there are few spells. Both red counters a)are odyssey or pre-odyssey, so iffy on the color pie, and more importantly b) have a mechanic that had been used previously to allow red to bend the color pie (like black ocassionally does with severe life loss or sacrificing stuff. Molten influence has the Brobeat mechanic, which also allowed card draw, discard and others if the opponent was unwilling to take damage, Mage's Contest has a weird bidding mechanic which has popped up in a few other cards (mostly black, I think). Even then, that's two cards each vs. probably a few dozen blue 'straight' counters in our reference pool.
I did mention that they would be limited, but I concede the point, with the expanding of each color it should not be overly hard to fit it in.

I had thought about overlap, but, then I felt like I was "cheating" people who selected both colors and were short a few spells, given it would be a small number. So I tryed to match certain themes to each color and if the spell seemed to much like more than one color i slotted it into colorless or skipped it.
Well, a Mana Mage with a spell on two lists, especially a useful one he wants to use a lot, has the advantage that he can use two pools of mana to cast it rather than just one, just like a player putting a hybrid card into his two-color deck.
I already have it so they can spend any color for half the spell's cost, though I guess I could change that in favor of over lap.
Not necessary, I think. If you decide to do the overlap, you could just have equal amounts of overlapping spells in all schools.
I am leaning towards no overlap still but will try to fit unique spells in that could fit two colors, similar to the healing spells I gave to green. But what did you mean by not necessary, the need for baseline half cost, the dropping of it, or something else?

Now on the list sizes, what is your thought on a cap, cause i certainly do not want to give to many spells.
Frankly, I don't know. Making them a little smaller than the Sorcerer's spells known seems about right.
Each color or total for a how many color mage?
Not sure. I wanted to say 'each color', but I keep forgetting that everyone gets the colorless list by default as well, so they already have more spells known than a sorcerer.  Bang Head
Think I will aim for each color to have less than the sorcerer, maybe even another 9th for each color; it does look a little empty up there.
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